Armchair Historians

Heather Ashley & Joe Ortiz, Women of Herstory Podcast

March 24, 2022 Heather Ashley and Joe Ortiz
Armchair Historians
Heather Ashley & Joe Ortiz, Women of Herstory Podcast
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Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, Anne Marie talks to the co-hosts of Women of Herstory Podcast about the history of body hair (its removal, its inconvenience in battle, designated gender norms on "appropriate" lengths and styles...) so many things to know about body hair! Who knew?

Heather Ashley:
Born in Japan, raised in Texas, and currently residing in New York, Heather is no stranger to adventure. She is a dancer, singer, actor, activist. She was most recently seen in a site-specific bilingual play in Kagoshima, Japan, and the seasonal tour of the 3 Redneck Tenor's Spec-tac-YULE-ar, as Edna Mae. It is important to Heather to provide a safe space for thought-provoking conversations that can give a greater understanding of the different experiences of the people around us.

Joe Ortiz:
Born and raised in New York, Joe is a Queens kid through and through.  As an actor, he acquired his B.A. in Theatre at CUNY City College in Manhattan, New York, and performed in a supporting role as "Juan" for the 2017 feature film, "The Devil's Restaurant." He's appeared in marketing campaigns for Bud Light and Dior and has worked on commercials for Samsung, Van Heusen, and Stella Artois.  He is passionate about advocating for positive change in our society.

Women of Herstory: website: https://ofherstory.com
Twitter: @theherstorypod
Instagram: @womenofherstorypodcast
Heather Ashley: website: www.heatherashore.com

Podcast Episodes Mentioned:

Rachel Balkovec: Hitting Coach with the Yankees: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/interview-rachel-balkovec/id1506437497?i=1000471099460

Artemisia Gentileschi:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/artemisia-gentileschi-italian-baroque-painter/id1506437497?i=1000544966492








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Anne Marie Cannon:

Hello, my name is Anne Marie cannon and I'm the host of armchair historians. What's your favorite history? Each episode begins with this one question. Our guests come from all walks of life. YouTube celebrities, comedians, historians, even neighbors from the small mountain community that I live in. There are people who love history and get really excited about a particular time, place or person from our distant or not so distant past. The jumping off point is the place where they became curious than entered the rabbit hole into discovery. Fueled by an unrelenting need to know more, we look at history through the filter of other people's eyes. armchair historians is a Belgian rabbit production. Stay up to date with us through Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Wherever you listen to your podcast that is where you'll find us. I'm Chair historians as an independent, commercial free podcast. If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad free, you can buy us a cup of coffee through coffee, or you can become a patron through Patreon links to both in the Episode Notes. Hello fellow armchair historians. Today I am delighted to share with you the conversation I recently had with the CO hosts of women of her story podcast Heather Ashley and Joe Ortiz. Heather was born in Japan, raised in Texas, and currently resides in New York City. She is a dancer, singer, actor, and activist. It's important to Heather to provide a safe space for thought provoking conversations that can give a greater understanding of the different experiences of the people around us. Born and raised in New York City. Joe or cheese is a queen's kid through and through. He too is an actor who has appeared in marketing campaigns for Bud Light and Dior, and has worked on commercials for Samsung Van Heusen and Stella Artois. Joe also performed in the supporting role of wine for the 2017 feature film, The Devil's restaurant. Joe is passionate about advocating for positive change in our society. Have you ever thought about hair removal? I mean really thought about it? Well, in today's episode, that's exactly what we talk about. We learn about the history of hair removal, and about the societal pressures for women and men to keep their hair a certain way. I will say this is one of the more unusual histories that we talk about on armchair historians. And yet one of the most thought provoking Heather Ashley and Joe are teas. Welcome to armchair historians. Oh, thank you so much for having us. We're so excited. Thank you very much. We're looking forward to this. So mine very excited. I just want to say that I absolutely love the fact that you covered Artemisia gentle LISI because nobody knows about her. And I have notes for a work of historical fiction about her. And wow, it was because of all the things you talked about. I don't know why I must have been mad at a man. But I was I was Googling the beheading of Hello fournis though, yes, yes. So I was Googling that beheading of Hello fournis whatever his name is. And I don't know why. But I landed on this one particular portrait, and there were so many things that drew me in about it. And it was really the authenticity of the experience that was being expressed in the painting. And I love that you talked about her on your show. Anyways, that's a side note.

Heather Ashley:

Though, one of the coolest things with that is that because we're in New York City, the Met actually has one of her paintings, one one, anyway, but it it was so cool to be able to like, do all this research about her and then go and look up where we could find any of her work in person. And it was the met and we were like, Oh my gosh. And so I made this whole thing where I like, looked up on the map exactly what room exactly what gallery and I just like be lined directly to it. And it ended up being that there was like a couple of what looked to me to be art students sitting in front of it, like dissecting each section of the painting itself. And like it was I was like, This is so cool. All the things are melding into this. Yeah, real experience that I wasn't anticipating so

Anne Marie Cannon:

cool. Well, we're just gonna get started. And I always ask this question, what's your favorite history that you're going to be talking about today.

Heather Ashley:

Okay, so we couldn't pick just one person. There's just so many that we we really juggled with it for a while. I was like, Oh, what if we talk about Charlotte Cushman? Or what if we talk about XYZ, and we ended up going a little more towards the history of body hair, hear me out, not in a gross way of how we as a society, how it went from it being something where it was strictly in the stone age's about not getting your hair pulled in battle and protecting yourself from frostbite, to then it being masculine versus feminine ideas, between behind why we do all the things we do and the implications behind them, and how it's how the invention of the safety razor, completely changed, how we approach all of it. And it's just a really fascinating, really niche kind of weird part of history. But it has a lot that I think is relevant to culture today. And it's really interesting to see how it's shifted over time and

Anne Marie Cannon:

how our attitude coming.

Joe Ortiz:

She asked me to take a day to think about or a day or two to think about which topic I want I, I might want us to talk about. And so, you know, it really, it was hard for me to choose at first, because there were so many good topics for us to be able to talk about. And I think this is a topic that we've had discussions about, but not to a certain extent. And so once we both agreed to like this topic to talk about, then, you know, we got to educating ourselves a little bit more kind of about the historical aspect of it, because people have had hair for forever, I think in the history books, as far as I'm concerned. And so it became a sort of societal thing that we that we would talk about where it's like, how have we as historians, or Herstory, and decided to talk about hair, and the perspective of it throughout different time periods.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Yeah, that's an interesting topic. And it's, uh, you know, conversely, men with long hair, that that's a whole thing that I've been having Mojo conversations with one of my best friends, Kevin, who, during COVID, decided to let his hair grow long. And he's, you know, he's executive director of a hotel, museum, Victorian Wow. And he's always looked at the role. And we've had a lot of interesting conversations about men being taken seriously with long hair. So

Heather Ashley:

it's specifically more about how women and how it's impacted women's decisions and the way we've gone about it, because in ancient Egypt, Egyptian women removed all of their hair entirely head to toe, because Cleopatra said a trend where she removed the hair on top of her head. And it was a signification of class. So after the stone age's, there's really no indication that body hair decisions for women specifically had anything to do other than proving that you were of higher morals that you were of higher class, even if you weren't, because if you were wealthier, you had access to materials that other people didn't. So they were making creams and waxes like the first indication of like a sugar scrub wax, where they would combine sugar, water and lemon juice and that late to like, remove hair to show that they worked because it would dry and they would just yank it out. So this it's it's such an interesting thing to see that even in ancient Egypt, it really didn't have anything to do with actual hygiene or safety. It was just the implication that hair for men and women actually at this point, the standard was no hair, head to toe, nothing if you had hair. It was a wig wasn't actually. And that's obviously not in all cases. But based on my research, I thought that was fascinating. And even through ancient Greece, it's the same thing where women would pluck or singe off their hair to show that they were clean and pure and worthy and not in a lower class. And it continued and continued even into the Roman empire where they had razors made of Flint and they would use tweezers. cream stones all kinds of on your face, it would literally just craziness it because it showed a higher class. And it was in the Roman Empire time period that we found that the expectations for men and women and their, the way that they addressed arm hair, even facial hair didn't matter changed. It shifted to where women having hair was very bad. And it showed that you were impure and had no class but for men, it showed that you had great manhood. And then from then on, it's even further. I mean, we see that today where it's still it is starting in the Roman Empire, just the past divulge. And we end up in this place where the expectations just continue to get crazier with Queen Elizabeth the first removing her eyebrows and plucking back her hairline. That was the beauty standard. And but at that time, if the parts of your body that weren't shown, weren't touched, so it shifted to where it was growing it growing out, any hair was feminine at that point, because you had no eyebrows further back hairline. But all these other parts of you are covered and it was considered masculine. If you removed it because of razors because of the razors were thought of as a masculine tool. Even it's just so bizarre how this shifts throughout history have made it to where we think that it's the the expectation, I guess,

Anne Marie Cannon:

aesthetically pleasing that it's feminine. Yeah, it's feminine or masculine to wear your hair a certain way.

Heather Ashley:

It's odd how that has worked its way in our unconscious, because for a long time, I was like, Oh, we shave all the things. Okay, that makes sense. Any hair, like we have hair all over our faces. But for whatever reason, one hair that might be darker is expected to be plucked, and no one should see it. Because how dare you make anything about yourself on pleasing to anyone else's gaze, even like so in the 1700s of French barber created the first razor like true razor. And then in the 1800s, Gillette created the first version of the safety razor, which is what we have at home. So that made it more accessible for at home maintenance. You didn't have to go to the barber with a straight razor. And then it made it to where women were starting to their husbands had their at home safety razors, so then naturally, they begin to use them. And then in the 1900s, Gillette created the first safety razor marketed towards women. And it was actually it was packaged in rose velvet. So they knew that there was a whole other half of the population that wasn't buying razors. So they said how can we get money from the other half of the population that doesn't know yet that they need to shave? So they created a marketing campaign? Did

Anne Marie Cannon:

you ever notice how women's razors are way more expensive than men's? Yes. And they're worse? Yes. They're worse

Heather Ashley:

and more expensive, and it makes no sense.

Joe Ortiz:

I also just think using a razor or putting a blade to one's face in order to remove said hair just sounds kind of barbaric. Was there not something else that we could have utilized maybe now like back then if you only had like a rock to chisel or you know, like a sharp object that they were able to finagle? You know at least now I would like something that's going to be a little less hazardous to me. I mean, nine times out of 10 and this is probably because I'm just still very not good at just shaving with you have a lot of razor Yeah, I just ended up i Nick myself a little bit sometimes. And I always I like look up at the sky and I'm like who's doing this to me? It's just it just doesn't seem it seems like at least now we should have had something more advanced but what

Heather Ashley:

Well, I was gonna say there used to be as there are still now but the other alternative were industrial strength creams hair removing creams that caused cancer and deformation all these things. Yeah, bad.

Joe Ortiz:

And I guess now we have electric razors, which is what I utilize. But you know, for those close shaves, I do like a nice close shave. But I think we should be moving on from a blade or something that's going to I don't know what the middle ground is. I don't, I don't have the answer. So I have a pin here. Well, I'm also going oh, has

Anne Marie Cannon:

opinions, lots of opinions.

Joe Ortiz:

That's all I have. She has she's facts. I'm opinion. But you actually mentioned something interesting before about the ancient Greeks and the Roman, the Roman Empire. You know, I feel like a lot of times, philosophers, philosophers, and then also like the Greek and Roman mythology, in terms of like those males, a lot of them have long lush hair. I mean, think of Zeus from Hercules. Right. big beard. You know, when we think of some, some philosophers, they were like these all knowing individuals that just had their families like Santa Claus. Santa Claus. Yeah, exactly. And I don't think they all have that kind of hair back then. I don't know if they all I mean, like a Hercules. So what? Here Hercules had like a number two or three?

Heather Ashley:

Well in Greek mythology, but that's interesting. I didn't think about in Greek mythology. They were all very hairy. But actually in real life. If there there were people, there were men who were shunned for having big full beards. Weird, right, but within their own structure of society with with what they were teaching and worshipping. They were all very hairy. Yes. It's all I mean, it's all common. No,

Joe Ortiz:

I don't understand.

Heather Ashley:

But so back to the topic. During the 19 hundred's, women were starting to expose more of their body hair. So hair removal, well, more of their bodies, more hemlines for raising neck lines, were dropping sleeves, were starting to come off. So more of you is being exposed. So shaving started, well, more hair removal started become more normal, but shaving was the least favored until the 1940s. Right, which is really weird. Which kind of makes no sense to me. But that's fine. It actually had to do I have all these notes in front of me to make sure I don't miss things. But it actually had to do with war. Yeah. So there was a period between World War One and World War Two, when the advent of private bathrooms and indoor plumbing in the United States set a groundwork further for the self shaving, like I mentioned before, in the 40s, they were making a transition between the creams to the razors, because the hemlines rising, and you couldn't use tights to hide your hair. Because all nylon and silk was being repurposed for military use. So they were like, if it's exposed, it has to be gone. And I think that's really strange, because I don't know how like, PG 13 You get on this, but the fact that they're still having relations with one another, right? So it's not a like sexual preference for someone to be hairless. It's a presentation in public. And so it shifted from just being well, if they can see it outside, then it shouldn't be unsightly. To now a complete expectation to be a dolphin. Except the top of your head for women, which has to be long hair.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Can I just tell you, I'm making these faces because I just had a realization that last night I swear to God, this is true. I dreamt about shaving my legs. Ah, is that though I just like came to me. I just remembered as you're totally off topic, but it was so weird. It was like, did I dream about shaving here?

Joe Ortiz:

Yeah,

Heather Ashley:

you had a premonition.

Anne Marie Cannon:

So, but Oh, that's so crazy.

Heather Ashley:

It's just I think that's an interesting commentary. Because now today there's such an expectation where it's not a choice if you are a woman, and you decide you don't want to shave, because it's your own time. There's actually I found a figure that says it was a study in 2009 and it showed that the average Woman shaves 12 times per month, she spends about 1595. Over a lifetime, she will shave 7718 times 10.9 minutes each time at a minimum. That is and and she will spend over $10,000 on related products. So it is quite literally based on when they started marketing specifically to women. It's a scam, I think because there's just so much strangeness within it because if you don't have a dolphin aesthetic with no hair shiny, perfect, then you in a lot of people's eyes are not being womanly, there's something masculine about keeping the hair that naturally grows on your body. It's not like you're adding extensions, I mean, live your dreams if you want to do that. But it's just such a strange shift to see that even after the stone age's. It went from a necessary thing to keep yourself from getting frostbite, and getting it pulled in war to adjust being this expectation of, well, if you're a woman, sorry, but you got to shave more than your face. Whereas men's marketing, it's always been men's facial hair choices, hair choices have always been determined by religion, by convenience, and war and personal preference. Just absolutely. And the convenience of razors made more men embrace clean shaven lifestyles, I guess you could say in the 1800s, which does show that like, Okay, that was still a fashion choice at that point. Where if you wanted to clean shave, but then now it's shifted even for men to if you have a beard and long hair, your somehow looked at as not as tidy, you don't care as much about your appearance. Whereas arguably, and I think Joe could tell you, he spends more time on his hair than he ever did when it was short. And he spends more time making sure his beard looks nice, and actually grooming it and taking care of his skin than he did when he clean shaved and bust his hair.

Joe Ortiz:

I mean, I don't want you to walk around with someone that you is completely unruly, oh, I'll clean up. But the point

Heather Ashley:

is that, like, hair shouldn't determine anything about the person. And I think that also counts not just for like shaving body hair or anything like that. Like I used to have purple hair at one point. And some people would look at me like I was insane, and that there's no way that I could do what I wanted to do with that. And I'm like, my hair anywhere, does not affect my ability to do anything within. It's just a personal preference. And yet that's still not acceptable. I find it interesting because there was another study that showed that like 98% of people polled in this poll had, I mean, absolutely negative reactions to being asked what they thought about body hair on a woman. And that was from women. It was a poll taken only by women. And I think that just kind of it doesn't mean anything other than you're human. And we've evolved, I don't know, I think it's just fascinating to look at what's popular ebbs and flows and how hair can be used as political statements. And then even if you're not using it as a political statement, people assume it's a political statement. Like you could just be lazy and not want to shave your armpits and then somebody's gonna say, Oh, are you a raging feminist? Who's a man hater? No, I just don't feel like giving myself razor burn.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Like that is deeply rooted in our cultural aesthetic. And my mother was from France. She didn't shave. For some reason. For me, it was like a palling. Like why don't you shave? And why this is a very good conversation. Why does it bother me? Why do I feel like I have to remove my hair if I'm going to wear a bathing suit or marketing marketing? I know I know. But why is it so rude? it in me is like, there's other things that you have to change with the times. But this one, you're really challenging me with that you're really challenging me with it as far as that goes.

Heather Ashley:

And this isn't to say that anybody who shaves is anything other than who they are. I think it's just interesting. There's a lot of little things for me that I've had to look at and be like, Why did I say that? Or why? Why do I always feel like I have to have a perfectly shaped eyebrow, and the perfect color lips, and I love makeup, he can tell I always look like I'm going on stage. When I when we go out, I will theme it out full camp, I am looking crazy. She looks nice

Joe Ortiz:

with or without it. For the record. He's

Anne Marie Cannon:

lovely. Nice, I see where you keep.

Heather Ashley:

Right. But it's something where I with body hair with really anything I used to refuse to call my I call myself a feminist because I had all everything I had consumed. was saying that feminism meant you hated men, and it was a bad word. And that's not at all what it is. Men can be feminists, I can be a feminist and love men, I can you know, like, it's, there's a lot more to it than what a lot of people think there is. And then and then that kind of helped. Once I got past that personal barrier that I had, that I didn't even know I had is when our platform really that was the starting place for it. For me personally, I gone on quite a journey. And I think the way we landed on the, you know, shaving and hair was that yeah, like he's over here with his long curly hair. And he gets a lot of comments on it both good and bad. It depends on where he is on who's around him and what they feel is their right to interject with an opinion on it. And it's something where it affects no one other than the person unless they're actively going out of their way to put their hair on you. Then how does someone else's choices affect anyone And yet, there was actually a model, she received death and like assault threats after posting pictures of her unshaved legs, on social media, and people decided that she deserved death and other threats. It's interesting, interesting.

Joe Ortiz:

I think it's strange that we've assigned certain hairstyles with gender. I don't think that makes sense at all, when I've had this long hair, and then I've worn a mask. I've been misgendered many I've been misgendered. I mean, that's just funny in the situation and circumstance. And then I've had a couple women tell me that I look like a woman. Yeah, you know, when I wear a mask, they say, Well, you look like a woman. And I'm just like, that doesn't make any sense. Everyone was infatuated with Fabio years ago. Like Heather said, I do have the privilege of just being complimented or commented on, I do recognize that no one is threatening me because I have hair. So in that sense, it's shameful that it happens to women just because of their just because of how they look. It doesn't make any sense. There's no sense behind it. But also, I think it's a societal construct that we've established, Not we but over time, society. I mean, centuries established this point, you know, yeah, where we assign certain genders to certain hairstyles, and if it doesn't match the way that people think it does, then they, you know, take umbrage with it.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Talking about this has made me reflect on how many men I've been with, who I'll be like, my, I let my hair get long. And then I'm like, I'm gonna cut my hair short. And I can think of quite most of the men in my life, I have to say my boyfriend excluded, currently has said, Oh, don't get your hair. Which makes me want to cut my hair more.

Heather Ashley:

Yeah, but that's the right reaction.

Anne Marie Cannon:

But yeah, it is gender norms and that whole thing, but you know, I think it's good to talk about this and look at it because even myself, I'm questioning why do I think a certain thing and why can I be more accepting of other people's decisions and esthetics about hair? So it's really made me think that you have an appalled me You made me think? Oh, good.

Heather Ashley:

I was a little worried earlier. I was like, I hope I hope this is an okay topic. It's a little off the wall probably different than what you expected. But I think It encompasses a lot of what we want to address with how we approach educating ourselves and doing our own research, which is to look at something that we might not initially consider to be a societal standard that is also part of capitalism, like Gillette, man, that choice for them to make a specifically female, like, marketing all of it. And then at the same time, they were running campaigns about these new industrial strength creams that can remove your hair and cause cancer. And, and then, you know, I even looked at some ads that were like, shave like a woman use this, this and this, and I was like, whoa,

Anne Marie Cannon:

whoa, that's so

Heather Ashley:

specific. And that's so specific to a point where it's not about health. And it's not about beauty, it's about money. It's it is strictly for them to say, how can we corner the entire population into buying our products for their entire life, once they hit puberty? Through death? How can we convince them that they have to continue to buy our product in order to be acceptable in society, and that is to partner up with fashion magazines, and showing pictures of women without hair. And then right next to it saying, For best results, use this and this shave like a woman look like a woman. And so that's what they would do. The only way to look like a woman is if you don't have the body hair, how do you not get the body hair by our products? These people who are in charge of a lot of these marketing things are brilliant. Brilliant. It's

Anne Marie Cannon:

just like shampoo and you go down the shampoo aisle. They cater a lot to women. And there's definitely a federal the markup is insane. Yeah. So yeah, it's all good things to think about and to think about our economic decisions, you know, how we spend our money, what we spend them on what we spend it on? Why do we have to pay more? And make last? Yes.

Joe Ortiz:

You know, to your point also, and when you brought up ex partners who criticized your choice for cutting your hair, so when she wanted to dye her hair purple during the pandemic, I was like, I love it. When she buzzes her hair, I'm helping her cut. Yeah, I'm actually behind. I'm not the best, I don't have steady hands, you're going to look great. And you're actually absolutely going to look pretty. And I think it has to do with the support system that people have around them. You know, if you don't have like a supporting partner, who is going to allow me to grow my hair out and not look like air, quote, traditional male with like shorter hair or something. She let me grow my hair out. She likes my hair long. Yeah, she'd like my hair short, but she supports me and just the way that if she wants to do something with her hair, or anything that she wants to do in general, I'm just like, perfect. You're going to be great. I love you. Yeah, like you're going to you know, you're going to whatever you want to do is great with me.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Ah, so you guys are a couple.

Heather Ashley:

Yes, we are. Yes, we are. We live together and Queens.

Joe Ortiz:

We were together before the pandemic and then when the pandemic happened, we moved in

Anne Marie Cannon:

and stayed together. Yeah, there. That's a great

Joe Ortiz:

statistically the opposite of what's happened over the last two years. Some people a lot of people have gotten divorces, we've actually gotten closer and worked out.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Yeah. Where do we see this history and pop culture? I don't think

Heather Ashley:

we do. I think we see the results and the implications of this history and pop culture based on what we've said the like, societal norms that have been projected, based on this history. I don't think anybody knows that. Egyptian women mostly removed head to toe men did well, and I don't think people realize that it wasn't until like not that long ago, that pads of expectations divulged and hairlessness and hairiness were no longer viewed the same way the same in perception for men and women. It flipped and then separated and then very rapidly to the detriment of women.

Anne Marie Cannon:

To Joe, did you have anything else to add to that discussion?

Joe Ortiz:

I think in terms of pop culture, we haven't seen too much of it. I was trying to think but it really just comes down to like when people do see women with hair, they become triggered by it. And it's like there are so many other things going on in a single person's life the world like This is not the Hilton television let people be let women be. Let hair be hair. It's always been there. Yeah, like it's gonna keep, it's gonna be there after everyone passes, and we're gonna have more of it in the future population. This I feel like pop culture has kind of like neglected it as a thing, and it still becomes like the societal issue it protects. That's what, that's what it is.

Heather Ashley:

I think pop culture protects culture doesn't

Joe Ortiz:

do anything to except show people with no hair. Hmm.

Heather Ashley:

Think about in sitcoms, there's a really common trope where there's like a joke where the woman will be like, oh, and I even shaved for this tonight. Yeah, you know.

Joe Ortiz:

And then there's like a line in the background. Everyone's like, Haha,

Heather Ashley:

so it's like, it keeps the joke. It keeps saying, Well, if you're going to do it, you got to shave for it. You got to make sure that there's nothing down there. But the man never makes that joke about himself. Or he'll make a joke about the woman. Or I saw one that was like, Oh, you I guess you didn't think we would be going this far tonight. Because she hadn't shaved the polar opposite of what it was in Victorian era where if it was seen in public, like your face, then that got plucked, but nothing else did. And it was fine. But now it's all into one.

Anne Marie Cannon:

That would be an interesting discussion to have with a Victorian person. Yeah, if I could go back in time.

Heather Ashley:

I know. I wish that every single day in my life.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Tell us about the podcast.

Heather Ashley:

It was actually his idea. We had been both laid off of our jobs bartending on Broadway, when Broadway shut down. We had nothing. And I'm a we're both very creative people. We were like, what's a creative outlet? And somehow, throughout all of our conversations, I would always end up raging about some guy who took some girls credit and something. And he would always be like, Well, I didn't do it. That wasn't me. But why don't you start a podcast about ladies doing amazing things. And I was like, that's a genius idea. And then it ended up being where we were like, I think it would be good to have him part of it because he is a feminist and men can be feminists. It's not a bad word. And then it ended, it was initially just going to be researched biographical episodes, and I was looking up this woman named Rachel Belk avec, she actually just got hired as a manager for the Yankees, a team. She's the first for their organization. At the time, she was actually the first female full time professional hitting coach for Major League Baseball team. So I was like, I would love to do an episode about her. So I start researching her. And I can find one article, one article about this woman who made incredible history. So I reached out to her, asking if I could just send her a set of questions. And if she could just email me back the answers, and I was gonna write an episode. And she goes, you know, you could just interview me and release that as an episode. And I was like, oh my god, genius. So that's how we came to be a twice weekly podcast, we have research biographical episodes, where Joe and I co host. And then later in the week, we release interviews of women of today making amazing moves all over the world, in various sectors and in various stages within the their career. And so that's that's what we do with women of her story, a podcast and we hope that it's making the impact on others that it's made on us as we've we're going into our fourth season now. Actually.

Anne Marie Cannon:

How did you guys meet at work

Joe Ortiz:

work? We were bartenders.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Yeah.

Heather Ashley:

And work and you know, the rest is history history. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, we met at work and we're really good friends that first for a while and then, you know, just kind of were like, Oh, I I don't hate you. Like I hate the others.

Joe Ortiz:

Fun fact, she made fun of me one time because I didn't properly shave my beard. My third time I ever thought she had asked me who did that. Or like, did you do that? And I I thought I was I thought it was okay, but I didn't realize my it was really uneven. Facial hair was uneven and she was very polite enough to inform me that it was not even. And so I think from then on, I was like, I'm gonna keep her That's

Heather Ashley:

funny back to shaving that is,

Anne Marie Cannon:

yeah, thinking about a way to say, Oh, we've come full circle or something.

Joe Ortiz:

Yes. I wanted to bring that up for that. Yeah. But it's like her brutal honesty, but also just like her being her being able to call me out on something is like something that I think a lot of men struggle with being able to be called out. And so, you know, it's, it's good. It's, I think it's very healthy, or something like that to happen. If it doesn't look right. Let me know, I don't want to walk around looking like a vagabond. So

Anne Marie Cannon:

I have one final question for both of you. Okay, what's your favorite second color and why? Oh, my God.

Heather Ashley:

That is so funny. My second favorite color. I'm so happy someone asked me this. Okay, so my second favorite color would have to be and it's funny as I look around how much blue is in this room, but it's actually purple. And why is because for me, purple is powerful and a different way than my number one favorite, which is red. Purple is really like a deep royal purple, I think feels grounding. And if I'm wearing purple, it complements my very pink skin. And it just makes me feel really comfortable and powerful and happy. That's why I dyed my hair like this really, really purple hair. I loved it so much. And I felt freakin fabulous. Yeah, I just feel powerful with it.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Just for my listeners who maybe haven't listened to your podcast. You ask that to your guests. So that's why I'm asking you guys.

Joe Ortiz:

I love it. And I want everyone to know that this wasn't planned. Scripted, because my answer actually is also purple. Oh, for my second favorite color. I specifically when you said royal purple I covered my mouth because I was so sick that specifically I love royal purple specifically. There's something very like regal and and bright and bold about it. Blue is my first favorite color. And I think purple kind of is a little bit like on the scale. Yeah, right like it's a little bit like a darker I mean a dimmer color. I like the lighter like pastel colors but purple really to me. I also I think I look nice and a purple. I've worn a purple tie ones. And sometimes I think about that tie. And like How should I look? I looked good in that. But that was like six, seven years ago. Maybe I didn't have long hair. That's so this this is at least like five years. Anyway,

Heather Ashley:

I've learned a new thing or you

Anne Marie Cannon:

go you've learned something new about your partner. Herbal no idea.

Joe Ortiz:

I figured yours was going to be purple. I know how much you like purple, but or it would have been purple or green. I wouldn't have been surprised either way. But purple for me. That's a second favorite. I love that question. Wow. That's awesome. Thank you. This has been so much fun. I loved this. We were a little nervous you

Anne Marie Cannon:

thank you guys for saying yes. I really enjoyed talking to you getting to know you better. listening to your podcast.

Joe Ortiz:

Thank you. Thanks so much for having us. Yeah.

Anne Marie Cannon:

There you have it. Heather Ashley and Joe Ortiz. Why do you wear your hair the way that you do? And what are your biases about hair removal? Be sure to check out their podcast women of her story. Also check out our episode notes to find out more about them their podcast and the topic we discussed today. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week.