Dr. Rod Tanchanco, First Patients: The Incredible True Stories of Pioneer Patients

Anne Marie talks to Dr. Rod Tanchanco about his new book, First Patients. This timely narrative looks at how far we’ve come; what we’ve learned from past pandemics and the real-life patient stories behind our most important medical advancements.

Often marked by the desperate need to save human lives, important developments in medicine have invariably started with patients—people whose ordeals fostered the advancement of medical knowledge. This book is a collection of such stories, each chapter an enthralling view into the history of medicine, revealing the extent of human inventiveness, resilience, and compassion.

Rod Tanchanco is an internist, Fellow in the American College of Physicians, and has three decades of experience. Rod has worked as a primary care physician, hospitalist, research doctor, and medical director for global healthcare organizations. He writes medically-themed non-fiction focused on historical events and their human narratives.

Resources
Website: First Patients: https://first-patients.com/author/piximdoc/
First Patients, the book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09Q1X9CZW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
Twitter: @rodtmd
Instagram: @rtanch22

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Transcript

Anne Marie Cannon: 0:00

Hello, my name is Anne Marie cannon and I'm the host of armchair historians. What's your favorite history? Each episode begins with this one question. Our guests come from all walks of life, YouTube celebrities, comedians, historians, even neighbors from the small mountain community that I live in. There are people who love history and get really excited about a particular time, place, or person from our distant or not so distant past. The jumping off point is the place where they became curious that entered the rabbit hole into discovery, fueled by an unrelenting need to know more, we look at history through the filter of other people's eyes. I'm sure historians is a belt and rabbit production. Stay up to date with us through Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Wherever you listen to your podcast that is where you'll find us. I'm Chair historians is an independent, commercial free podcast. If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad free, you can buy us a cup of coffee through coffee or you can become a patron through Patreon links to both in the Episode Notes. Hello, fellow armchair historians. Well, it happened. I got COVID It's been 12 days since I started having symptoms. I'm for the most part I'm better. There is like some residual. I'm winded that type of thing. I'll tell you it was no walk in the park. But it could have been a lot worse had I not been vaccinated I imagine how timely is this because our guest today is Dr. Rod tan chenko. Now Dr. Tan chenko is here to talk about his new book first patients. This timely narrative looks at how far we've come what we've learned from past pandemics and the real life patient stories behind our most important medical advancements, often marked by the desperate need to save human lives. important developments in medicine have invariably started with patients, peoples whose ordeals foster the advancement of medical knowledge. The book is a collection of such stories, each chapter and enthralling view into the history of medicine, revealing the extent of human inventiveness, resilience, and compassion. Dr. Tan chenko is an internist fellow in the American College of Physicians, and has three decades of experience. He has worked as a primary care physician, hospitalist, research doctor, and medical director for global health care organizations. He writes medically themed nonfiction focused on historical events and their human narrative. Dr. Rod tan chenko Welcome to armchair historians.

Rod Tanchanco: 3:07

Oh, thank you. Thanks for having me, Emery. Glad to be here today.

Anne Marie Cannon: 3:11

So what's your favorite history that we're going to be talking about?

Rod Tanchanco: 3:15

Well, my favorite history is anything in the history of medicine, you know, being a doctor. And I'm particularly interested in personal stories, kind of the ordeals and the challenges that patients or people faced, particularly during times of when there was some sort of medical discovery or innovation. Oh, yeah, and how that change those people and how it kind of affected and change medicine as a whole. So I kind of look sometimes for, I guess, what I would call the backstories, you know, behind some of these sometimes famous events, and you know what they are, but there's a lot of stories behind them. So

Anne Marie Cannon: 3:53

not only are you passionate about that history, you've written a book about it. Yes, I have, and what's the name of the book?

Rod Tanchanco: 4:01

The book is first patients. And the premise is primarily that looking at those, finding those backstories to some of these events or milestones in medicine, you know, looking at the personal experiences, maybe if the patient's preferably, and of course, the you know, the doctors or the scientists who were who were involved in that. So, yeah, so they're kind of a collection of 10 stories that I found, met that criteria, and I found quite interesting. Some of them are pretty well known. I think they're well known, but the most of them are Pol, you know, most people probably have not heard of, they've heard of the thing, you know, they've heard of vaccination. Obviously, we all have, right, and we've all heard of penicillin, and pacemakers, but this goes a little bit into like I said, you know, sort of the behind the scenes stories, sometimes of the people involved, the first time those things have

Anne Marie Cannon: 4:57

what is one of the least known stuff stories that you cover in the book,

Rod Tanchanco: 5:02

the least known story? Well, it would probably be the vaccination story, I would say it's probably not very well known. We all know about the vaccination. Now, obviously, with a pandemic, and so forth, and those who are no medical history a little bit more, maybe in their health care field or something like that, but just interested in history of medicine probably has heard of a doctor named Edward Jenner was considered sort of the father of vaccination. So he was a doctor in England, and you know, in the early 1800s, and he came up with this theory that if you inject material from cow pox, which is a disease that cows get, during that time, injected in humans, that they would become immune to smallpox, so a cow pox being used to immunize for smallpox. And the idea was that he got the idea, as the myth goes from, from milkmaids seeing the milk needs at that time, who had really perfect confliction you know, because smallpox, I've never seen smallpox smallpox case, and probably a lot, most people haven't. But you know, it was killing a lot of people back then, obviously, and it would disfigure people, you know, you have scars that are really very severe. And that's how people knew that someone had already been infected with that telltale signs of that. The milkmaids, supposedly, were immune, you know, they would work with cows, obviously, milking cows and taking care of cows, and they probably got cow pox at some time during their childhood, got immune and never got smallpox. So that was a theory, that was the sort of theory behind it. And he was supposed to have known two of them. So that was the where the idea came from. And he had a very passionate biographer, eventually, when it became famous. And you know, they had to create all the stories behind it to make it interesting. Now, that was never really proven that he knew this milkmaids, and that kind of thing. Then the story that I put in the book, it's not about him at all interesting. Okay. Yeah. It's about a farmer, not a doctor, not a scientist, it's a farmer 20 years before he generally even did an experiment. And he had the same idea. And he actually, it wasn't really a folklore, but people during that period actually knew sort of heuristically you know, just by experience that some people just don't get smallpox, you know, and these are people who work with cows. And he actually knew milkmaids. So that story with the Jenner poodle, he actually had that story through the difference is that there was a researcher who actually looked up those milkmaids. And they actually existed in census in the census and so forth. And they were related to this farmer. So he could actually prove that story was true. Not so much with gender, though the two the two women he mentioned, no one could ever find them, really. So but anyway, so whether Jenner got that story from somewhere, but he probably heard it, because it's very common in the, in the countryside, at that point. So, so this farmer unknown, and he had that same idea, you know, maybe if I get Boyle's material from the, from the boilers from the cow, you know, they would have these boilers and the others and the teats of the cows, that are the callbox. Maybe if I got that, and, you know, injected in the, in my, to my family, that they would get immune, and he was pretty sure that it would work. So he did it, he went to a farm, close to where he lived. And he looked for a cow that was actually infected with cow pox. And he brought his wife's sewing needle in a long piece of metal for that to use for sewing, or knitting at that point, he brought his wife, he's brought his children, you're both very young, he didn't know what to do, really. But at that point, there wasn't vaccination, there was this process called violation. And it's pretty much like vaccination, except instead of using material from animals or cow pox, they would actually use material from an infected person. So it's a, you know, plus material, let's say or scabs that are dried from an from a smallpox patients, and they would inject that into another person to try to induce immunity. Pretty dangerous, you know. So yeah, pretty much, you know, injecting yourself with smallpox and if you're lucky, you know, you survive and, but a lot of people weren't so lucky, and they were smallpox, not a good thing to have potentially fatal. And the bad thing the other bad thing about that is that you inject it into someone so you basically spreading the disease, pretty much so someone else can spread it. So pop marks a little bit more benign infection, it doesn't cause deaths, we may get a local reaction, there'll be some sickness, but overall, relatively safe compared to the alternative violation. A violation was very, very popular. It's very established during when that farmer did it. A lot of doctors were actually doing it doing it. And they were making a lot of money, it was their livelihood, to violate the population. But this farmer, his name was just the Benjamin just the, he just he said, it's, I don't think it's safe, I want to do something that's safer for my family, protect my family. So he did that. And he, he took the car parked in jeopardy, this family, his wife did get sick a little bit to be taken care of for a few weeks by some doctors, who then obviously found out but what Jessie did, so word went out that no, this farmer is experimenting with his family. His two kids never got sick, they didn't have any side effects. And none of them ever got smallpox. So I don't think anyone knows that story a lot. I

Anne Marie Cannon: 11:07

do know that. The other one would you say is it's it's more of a legend than it is a factual? Yes.

Rod Tanchanco: 11:16

So, so this kind of depth kind of story that I find interesting. I mean, I guess in a way, the farmer got lucky, right? And he didn't know the science behind it. He just sort of assumed and he was going by almost like the folklore. And following that, but no one was ever did it, you know, so he did it. And when we got out, it didn't go very well for him. You know, he was actually a pretty prominent member of the community, he was active in the community, he would hire, you know, physicians to violate the parish. He was in the parish board and so forth. So it was kind of a pillar in that community. But after that happened, you know, he said, you know, how can you experiment in your own family? That's one thing. And then the other thing was that how can you introduce material from from a beast, they call it, you know, from an animal into a human being this is, you know, 1774 Okay, so that was really blasphemous, you know, ungodly help, he was ostracized, he was going down, he would go to the market, and he would get pelted by the people, and so forth. So it wasn't a good, so he tried to lay low. And that's what he did. So he didn't do it again. He didn't try to promote it, or anything, but where it did go out. And eventually, he had to move to another parish, or to yet another town, basically start over. And while he was there, he was That was almost 20 years ago, when gender started to do His work, okay, in general was getting some fame. And he was getting some money from the government, because, you know, to compensate him, and, and so forth. Jesse was saying, wait a minute, maybe I should get a little bit of, you know, some compensation as well. And I did it 20 years ago. So he taught this to his parish priests, pretty much, who was also a doctor and be the prime minister who believed them. And he tried to advocate for him, and they tried to get him some recognition. And so but you know, he's a farmer. He's not, he never published anything, you know, he doesn't know the science behind it. So of course, you know, it didn't go anywhere, after that. And during that time, also, there were a lot of anti Jenner, people, people who are jealous, because, you know, of his fame and success. He had some rivals. And these rivals actually went to gesti, and said, you know, let's build you up. Let's bring you to London. And they painted a portrait for him, and they gave him honors, and so forth. And they tried to lobby for him with the parliament to recognize him and give him some compensation, and so forth. But the opposition is very strong. And so did

Anne Marie Cannon: 14:03

this guy, Jenner get the information from this story about the farmer.

Rod Tanchanco: 14:11

There is no record of that. And I know that there's another author named Patrick P, who wrote a book about GST, actually, and that was very good resource for me, getting all the primary sources and all that stuff. And for years, you know, he researched his own book for years, just like that farmer. And he couldn't find really anything that would link Jenner to Justine. But what he was saying and what's more probable is that Jesse just knew the story, the folklore, about cow pox and how it probably could protect against smallpox and, and did that and there were other doctors who thought we had the same theory and who we talked to, and who is not famous or the not become famous actually, it's not the Jenner stole ideas or he he worked very hard. Yeah. And he did the experiment, he did the work. So the others were happy enough with violation, just doing what they're doing continuing the status quo and so forth. So as a scientist, he didn't do a lot. And he advocated for it, he wrote to, you know, to, to everyone, scientists all over the world to promote it. He suffered financially, because of it. So when he was compensated, it was really because of all the losses that he had, while promoting and developing the techniques and so forth. So, yeah, so you know, there's a lot of credit for him that he doesn't deserve. But there's there's other stories to the fault, I guess what I would say is that he wasn't very generous, as far as acknowledging other contributors to that story, right, even his fellow doctors that actually helped him, and certainly a farmer, he's not going to acknowledge that, that someone would without that background, and it would, without his background, and his social standing, you know, with this, or even close to a credit that he had, yeah,

Anne Marie Cannon: 16:12

that's interesting. So it's a case of a wives tale being true and proven scientifically. That's interesting. And it's also interesting that, you know, kind of the same sentiments existed, even though part of it was based in religion, using the parts from a beast, or however you put it, it, but it's still all those questions about how do we test what's ethical, and it's really not ethical to try something out on your family member and other human being. Right. And that's why we today, we have all these rules and regulations about it, rightfully so. Right. But that is I didn't know that. That's an interesting. So I did start reading the book. And I am a slow reader. So I kind of just read excerpts of it to be a little bit prepared for the interview. And that was one of the stories I read a little bit more in depth. But yeah, so that is the first chapter. Yeah. So we don't want to give away the book, because we obviously want my listeners to buy the book. So there's other stories that touch on things like the pacemaker and yes, some, what are some of the other ones, I don't want you to go into detail about this story, just to kind of whet the appetite.

Rod Tanchanco: 17:35

Sure. Well, there's a story on the first transfusions from human to human. And that's a very interesting story, too. And it kind of, it's similar in a way to the theme of people being against getting anything from because the first infusions didn't really go too well. And they tried animal blood and that kind of thing. And they went to humans, and that didn't go well. And so for a long time, it was really, actually illegal, and banned, and until someone came along. And really, and one of the themes that also that he found in the story, when I when I was actually writing them and researching them, is that a lot of these innovators are these people, whether doctors or patients, a lot of them really went against dogma or tradition, or current beliefs or question, whatever, something that something that may have been assumed to be true for sometimes for centuries, right? Yeah. And that's what happened in the transfusion story and some of these other stories, too, that they would actually question, what's been believed for hundreds of years. And, you know, especially in the past year or so, it kind of resonated with me a little bit more when I reread these stories in the context of what's going on right now, you know, when science is under attack, and objectivity is sometimes under attack, and, you know, for whatever agenda, political or otherwise, that people have. And my take on that is that I think it's okay to question science. You know, I think that's how you make progress. I think we shouldn't question science sometimes, you know, it's sort of assumed, and then you may look back into the, into the evidence, I mean, what's backing up that claim and that kind of thing. And that's how change occurs. So but that's the sort of the take the attitude I take on it when when someone has theories, they don't believe in this or that, okay, you have to have something better. If you don't believe the science or you don't believe this theory, you have to have some an alternative that's provable to be better, and then I'll believe you. So that's kind of what some of these people did. Right? You know, so

Anne Marie Cannon: 19:58

is that how this book came about? Was it during the pandemic? That you wrote it or? No,

Rod Tanchanco: 20:03

no, that's it. Those are basically gave me perspective when I looked at it again, okay, since the pandemic began, but actually began the book almost 10 years ago, so the way before the pandemic, and it was that premise of looking for those personal stories behind the innovations, and then as I looked at them, I research them, and then, you know, certain things that were similar in them, and then when I looked at them, and through the lens of the current situation, and look at this, these people, you know, like, I was telling some people, for example, when you go back to that farmer, just the story, and then looking back at what's what's happening, when the pandemic began, you know, a lot of a lot of things have changed in 200 years, a lot of things have not changed. In 200 years, you know, people thought that injecting material from a cow will make you into turn into a cow, or beast, and that and these are not just foreign people, or people without any education, there are actually prominent physicians, doctors, who came out with articles and journals and so forth, complete with images of people, you know, drawings people with, with this disfigurements and they claim and caption would say, in the process of transformation, into you know, a bull. So they actually believe that, and these are scientists who believe that, so if they believe it or not, people will believe it, and they will be newspaper accounts and pictures of people turning into cows. And now you're more sure, you know, we've gotten a lot more sophisticated now. Right? We don't believe that. Vaccines will turn us into animals. But there's other theories, some are a little bit more wild, right? So the times have changed, the science has evolved. We're a lot more sophisticated. But you know, the passion, pro and against certain things. It just I guess it's human nature, I guess, you know, you it's just going to be there just in a different context. Yeah. Right. So I found that interesting, just looking at those how we have changed or have not changed at all. So in certain things.

Anne Marie Cannon: 22:20

So where do we see this history in pop culture? Or do we,

Rod Tanchanco: 22:24

the one that kind of immediately pops in my head, maybe not pop culture today, but pop culture during the time, one of the stories is on the the first defibrillation. So you shot a person, right? goes into cardiac arrest, and you use a defibrillator to bring them back. And we know we have tons of speaking be very what ubiquitous, it's everywhere, right? You go to an airport, and every corner would have an AED, defibrillator device, and so forth. But the story was in the in the 30s and 40s, when it was just a very rudimentary box. Doctor in Cleveland invented it because he was a surgeon, and he was seeing a lot of these cardiac arrests during surgery and you want to see them, he wanted to see them. So at that time, they used to just massage the heart directly, you know, in the chest, and Sergeant. But there was a lot of research going on, as far as electricity, electrical conduction in the heart, and so forth. And so they came up with the defibrillator, very crude pads, we put it on 220 volts or something like that, and then shock the heart back to life. Now in the in during that period, you know, late 30s 40s, again, it was it was controversial in its time, the mere idea of bringing somebody back to life, although we have a different definition of what death is now, right. And criteria for that or previous trick, but back then, someone passes out and has no pulse not breathing, not responding is essentially dead, and you do CPR, and there's no CPR back then as we know it now, or anything to shock them back to life. Again, it's like you're going against something higher, right? So this is a lot more controversial than than it is now. And what made it worse was there were some some doctors who were you know, kind of snake oil type thing and they're selling all sorts of goofy devices. And so that kind of just made it worse. made it less plausible and less credible for a lot of people. And it was that time when Frankenstein what's the hot movie? Okay. Oh, the decade you know, and what was Frankenstein about? Monster are being created being brought to life? Lightening electricity. Oh, interesting. So that that's the popular belief now, right that you're creating monsters, you're bringing something back to life that is unnatural. Or whatever comes back or may not be the same person. It might be online started, who knows? Right? So there's a lot of resistance that way and that setbacks ions, that setback medicine a little bit, I think, because people were reluctant to do research on that people were reluctant to accept it. You know, maybe if you're dying, you would just let DNR Do Not Resuscitate. Which we have now but probably more prominent. So that's one thing that one example that I can think of back then at the popular culture affecting, you know, the story? Sure. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So

Anne Marie Cannon: 25:55

Oh, wow. That is, that's a good, that's a good one. What was the most surprising thing that you discovered, while doing your research?

Rod Tanchanco: 26:08

Well, already mentioned that a lot of things have not really change, or we still have a lot of the same attitudes towards certain things. And I guess, you know, gives you some perspective that you're going to expect that the way to deal with it, I guess, for me, is just to really keep looking for evidence, you know, looking for credible sources, credible people, to me, because of all the noise that we hear right now. So in a way that's a little bit surprising. And also not so surprising. I guess. The one thing that also did surprise me a little bit, is that there were certain things that that I also believed for a long, long time. Okay, right. That, yeah, okay, maybe. And that made me question my own training sometimes, right? Because we're now maybe a student, and also in medical school and pre med, professors, you know, your attending physicians and so forth. I almost, it's almost like a hero worship kind of thing, that relationship, right? Yeah, like the word this must be true. You know. And in reading some of these stories, you know, I wonder what my career would have been, if I had questioned more. I kind of accepted a lot of the things and maybe some of them didn't turn out to be as accurate. Or they may, they may be not as expert as I thought they were in that kind of thing. So that kind of gave me also that perspective, looking back into it. Like one of the stories is, let's say peptic ulcer, right. For the longest time, there was this dictum that we had that was taught to us, no acid, no ulcer. So it's all acid. It's all stress, psychological, that kind of thing. And to think that something else could cause it, you know, and it's kind of hard to prove. But one of the stories is actually turned out that way, you know, this is truly an Australian doctors who, a pathologist, was looking through gastric biopsies, and some squiggly things in there. Instead, are these bacteria. So, you know, it's kind of unthinkable, it's like, bacteria, the acid in the stomach. Yeah. It's like, it's so strong. It's like, bad, you know, car battery acid, pretty much, you know, it's a pH of one or two. So to think that something can live in that environment, you know, pretty much the most corrosive compartment in our body is just unthinkable. So it's impossible, right? So, but he saw these things, and I didn't know what the squiggly things are. And then he looked and looked, and they looked like bacteria. And nobody believed them. You know, for the longest time, at least 100 years before that, wow, people have assumed you know, it's all acid that causes it and stress and, you know, emotional, certain emotional states will cause your acid to secrete. And of course, it's still true, but it's not the whole story, because there's other factors now, before this pathologist, there were actually other doctors who notice the same thing and they just dismiss it because it can be true, it can be true, right? So it can't be causing anything maybe we found it because it's an autopsy and you know, bacteria got in there afterwards, the patient died and that kind of thing. And at some point, to settle the the issue, there was a prominent gastroenterologist, you know, work with the Surgeon General in the early 20th century, and said, Let's settle this you know, let's get a fight. 1000 biopsies of stomachs and look at them and look for this bacteria, you know, and he found none. And he was so prominent that nobody questioned them. And nobody ever raised that issue again. Or if it was, it was a fringe theory, right bacteria causing ulcers. What came up later is that his study, which had more than 1000 subjects, or patients in it, a specimen was kind of folded views, not the ideal staining material to find that bacteria, that's why he didn't find any. And this Australian doctor in the 80s, was using the special silver technique, and he was finding them and so forth. But still even then no one believed them. And then finally, finally, a few years later, there was a young resident looking for a project and say, again, work on this. And his, his senior was saying, Go to that pathologist who thinks that bacteria causes ulcers, you know, maybe there's something to work on. So they collaborated, and they found more and more evidence, and there are a lot of roadblocks, this young doctor eventually ended up experimenting on himself, because that's the only way to prove it, you know, he had to meet certain criteria. So, but the point is that they were really going against 100 years of established medical belief, you know, medical act. So that was kind of surprising to see that.

Anne Marie Cannon: 31:31

So there, I don't really know about this. But there, there is bacteria that call causes.

Rod Tanchanco: 31:39

Yes, sir. Yes. And it's actually a main cause of ulcers. And you can imagine how revolutionary before this happened, because of this acid theory, which is still true, obviously, acid plays a big role in it. It led to the development of the first billion dollar drug, which is St. Matthew Dean tigernut. And it was designed to reduce the acidity in the stomach. And when it came out, it was the first blockbuster blood drug, okay. After a few years, it hit a billion dollars. This was like in the in the 70s at, and no one was treating the bacteria because no one believed it was the cause. Okay. And you can imagine, treating the acid is pretty much symptomatic treatment, it doesn't cure the underlying cause. Because if you still have bacteria in there, it's gonna keep happening. You're not treating the underlying cause of it. So it's kind of patch. It's a bandaid, pretty much.

Anne Marie Cannon: 32:39

So what is the treatment today for that? Well, the

Rod Tanchanco: 32:42

treatment today is a is a course of antibiotics. Actually, it's a combination of antibiotics that I was going to get to that, that you take for two weeks, eradicate the bacteria eradicates the ulcer and you're cured and people are cured, actually, as opposed to taking an antacid or some other medication to reduce acid secretion for life. Right, right. Great for pharmaceutical companies. But, you know, not too great for for patients sometimes, as opposed to a two week regimen of a very tolerable combination of antibiotics, which actually kills the bacteria.

Anne Marie Cannon: 33:22

I didn't know yes, that's fascinating.

Rod Tanchanco: 33:25

Yes, that's the H. Pylori. That's the H. Pylori. Yeah. And that's the that's the H. Pylori story. And, you know, and gastric ulcers are linked to gastric cancer. So, so there's implications there to reducing cancer. Wow, we have that as well. So, so it's it's kind of fascinating phasing.

Anne Marie Cannon: 33:48

Science is so cool. Wow. That's interesting. I didn't know that.

Rod Tanchanco: 33:53

And they earned a Nobel Prize, by the way.

Anne Marie Cannon: 33:56

Rightfully so. Right? Yeah. So if there's one thing that my listeners can take from this history, what would you like them to remember?

Rod Tanchanco: 34:09

Well, that there are these are very real people behind important medical innovations. And much as it's nice to know, discoveries themselves. It's nice to remember that there are personal stories behind it, right? Deals behind them. And to know that puts it in a better context on where we are, and how we make progress, how we learn, and how that process keeps going on and on. And for me, that's what it is. It just gives me that contacts. That these are very important discoveries with very real stories behind

Anne Marie Cannon: 34:53

Well that's the thing about the book is that and I even the reviews I've read I it's it's not like Straight science straight history is the stories are like mini biographies about these people who are involved in the process of getting the cure. And that's the thing about the book that I think is most interesting is the people stories. It's the people stories. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to share with my audience?

Rod Tanchanco: 35:28

No, I think you covered it pretty well, actually. So.

Anne Marie Cannon: 35:31

And the name of the book, again, is first patients and where can we find it?

Rod Tanchanco: 35:38

It's everywhere. should be in your favorite bookseller. Okay.

Anne Marie Cannon: 35:43

And where can we find you?

Rod Tanchanco: 35:46

i The book does have a website first patients.com. And that's first with a hyphen. patients.com. And, you know, the usual social media, Facebook and Twitter, okay, should be in there. The book does have its own website, and there's a lot more information in there as well. And for the readers who have the book, a little bit of a bonus material, you know, because you can with videos and the book and that kind of thing, but there's some a little bit of back material as well in there some other information and photos and so forth. That may be interesting. So

Anne Marie Cannon: 36:24

okay, let's look out already or is it coming out?

Rod Tanchanco: 36:28

It came out this month on March 8, so it is available. Okay,

Anne Marie Cannon: 36:32

cool. I really enjoyed talking to you today. Dr. Rod tan chenko. Thanks for being here.

Rod Tanchanco: 36:41

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed talking with you and Maria. Thank you.

Anne Marie Cannon: 36:48

There you have it, Dr. Rod tan chenko And the book first patients. To find out more about the book and Dr. Tan chenko Please be sure to check out our episode notes. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week.