Nicki Woodard, Host and Producer of As the Money Burns: Heirs and Heiresses

Today my guest is Nicki Woodard. Nicki is the host and producer of the podcast As the Money Burns, a deep exploration into the lives of actual heirs and heiresses to some of America's most famous fortunes and what happens to them when the great depressions hits. As the Money Burns is part audio drama, part documentary and part contemporary commentary.

As the Money Burns:
website: https://asthemoneyburns.com
Instagram: https://bit.ly/3lWqLUO
Facebook: https://bit.ly/3l1zgfS

Resources:
Doris Duke: https://bit.ly/2Hwn4q1
Barbara Hutton: https://bit.ly/3fwiCUw
John Jacob Astor IV: https://bit.ly/372N314
Gloria Vanderbilt: https://bit.ly/3m1VPma

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Anne Marie Cannon: 0:01

Hello, my name is Anne Marie Cannon, and I'm the host of armchair historians. What's your favorite history? each interview on this podcast begins with this one question. Our guests come from all walks of life, YouTube celebrities, historians, to my next door neighbor. There are people who love history and get really excited about a particular time place per person from our distant or not so distant past. The jumping off point is a place where they became curious, then entered the rabbit hole into discovery fueled by an unrelenting need to know more, we look at history through the filter of other people's eyes. armchair historians is a Belgian rabbit production. Stay up to date with us through Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Wherever you listen to your podcast that is where you'll find us. I'm chair historians as an independent, commercial free podcast. If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad free, you can buy us a cup of coffee through coffee, or you can become a patron through Patreon links to both in the Episode Notes. A couple weeks ago on social media. I posed the question to my followers, who's your favorite historical villain? And here's what people had to say about it. Veronica Mae said, tough question so many to choose from. hh Holmes lamoni J. Well, Kevin cuchara gave an emphatic h. h Holmes to respondents said Donald Trump, one of those people use the caveat, but I can't use his name with favorite anything. gang is Khan got Robert gray Graham's vote. And john king of England got Stephanie Marie Smith's vote to see more answers or to tell us your favorite, go to our Instagram or Facebook page. And while you're at it, be sure to like and follow. Today, my guest is Nikki Woodard. Nikki is the host and producer of the podcast. As the money burns a deep exploration into the lives of actual heirs and heiresses to some of America's most famous fortunes. The podcast explores what happens to them when the Great Depression hits. As the money burns is part audio drama, part documentary and park contemporary commentary. According to Nikki she first merged her passions of history and media making video documentaries for history fair. Yeah, it's like science fair but history using her father's super VHS studio. Since then, she went on to earn a BA in history, a BS in radio, television and film and a master's degree in Middle Eastern Studies. She has worked on multiple documentaries for the History Channel and Amy network. She served as research consultant for Mr. Robot and briarpatch. In search of a project for film and television, Nikki stumbled onto an article about a summer's events in Newport, Rhode Island in 1929, just a few months before the infamous Wall Street Crash down the rabbit hole she went. After further digging, she discovered a world of heirs and heiresses, whose lives paralleled her own all except for the money part. After years of developing the idea, Nikki has turned those stories into the as the money burns podcast, Nikki Woodard Welcome, and thank you so much for being here today.

Nicki Woodard: 3:31

Thank you for having me, this is gonna be so much fun. Oh, I'm

Anne Marie Cannon: 3:34

telling you, I'm into it. And just for the listeners who are maybe having followed me on social media. This was one of the episodes in which I was inspired to dress up in vintage 1920s attire. If you want to see my costume, go to my social media. And you'll be able to see Nikki, what I usually do is just get right into the conversation with the leading question, which is, what's your favorite history that you're going to be talking about today? Well, today I'm

Nicki Woodard: 4:03

going to be talking about the 1920s in the Great Depression. Because I have a podcast called as the money burns, which just came out this year, it covers the lives of actual heirs and heiresses to some of America's most famous fortunes when the Great Depression hits. And so what happens, who keeps their fortune, who loses it, the scandals that come around them, the love triangles, the failed marriages, all the chaos that can happen? And what I do is I follow a group of people, because usually when we learn A People's History, we learn one person, you would cover someone's biography and you would cover from birth to death. And you just like this might be just a note or a little fact. And instead, I really go into what their lives were for those several years. And what it is to other people. So you see, like, did they make a good decision or bad decision? What did they think was their decisions when they made it? decision, why do they choose that path versus another? What are the results of alternative choices?

Anne Marie Cannon: 5:07

I have taken a deep dive into the podcast. And it is amazing your approach to it all the work and research you put into it. And I've never seen this in a podcast, you have this approach. Each podcast episode is in three parts. And the first part is a narrative, which I assume you've written yourself, and you're in it, it just brings, for me, it brings me into it, because you know, I love historical fiction. And then the other thing of what I liked yesterday, when I was driving in the car, listening to your podcast is when I listen to something or watch something about history, I end up googling things. Because I want to know, you know the story, I want to know the story, I want to do the research. So when I'm driving in the car yesterday, you follow up your narrative with the history with the actual history. And when you're driving the car, it's not good to Google, when you're driving. Yeah, I like that, because it kind of fed that part of me. Then the other thing that you do in the third part three is you bring it into the present. And I just listened to one of the episodes that talked about the Vanderbilt family. And you talked about Anderson Cooper and his mother, Gloria van, it was you know, and I just brings it into the future in some way you bring it into the future, whether it's actually following the trajectory of the the air or air is his family, or whether it's just this is relevant today, because we're in a pandemic. That's my endorsement. And then the other thing, and then I'm going to stop talking and let you talk that I love about it is it brings you into the moment in this narrative, but then you kind of move away and move away. And then you see this big picture of a bigger context of these families and what was going on how the outside world affected them, and how their small circle interacts with each other, and then the rest of the world, there's just so much to it.

Nicki Woodard: 7:10

I've been a lover of history, since I was in third grade, I got hooked with a story of Pocahontas. Then later in like fourth grade, I realized that those fairytales we love so much, actually, they're real queens and princesses all around the world. I've just dove into history Ever since then, I went to film school gotta at the same time at University of Texas, I got a BA in history, as well as getting my BS in film and TV. I did documentaries in high school, I worked for the History Channel for several years, I got a master's degree in Middle Eastern Studies, which was focused on history, because I love international royalty dynastic histories. And so what I really love is what I what I don't like is when you keep hearing the same story, but you're missing so much of the of the other element, and I decided this back in high school, if I'm gonna work that hard, I have to, I have to love the subject. You know, when we learn history, you learn the history of England, you learn the history of France, you learn the history of Spain, and once in a while you get the crossover. But when you really sit there and you compare, you find out, you know, like King Henry the Eighth is such a small at the time, he was such a small, insignificant person. He is now significant for who we are today and what the world became. But at the time, the Ottoman Empire in the empire of India, which is what I studied in Middle Eastern Studies, mogul and Ottoman were the powerhouses. And then France was significantly strong. And when I went to visit Europe, I went through a castle and I saw a little engraving with all four rulers, and wrote a paper on the significance of all four of them together, and who was ranked what, and the politics. And so the same thing goes with these people's like we know who Barbara Hutton is. And you can look at her story. And you know, she's been married seven times. You can look at Doris Duke, you know, she's been married two times, you know, like you can Wikipedia and find out how they died. But what we don't understand is how they became the way they were. And that Barbara Hutton and Doris Duke are born less than two weeks apart. They were compared their whole entire lives together. And when you read their biographies, you will see references to one but you only see a reference and half the time they'll get the fact wrong. Like they'll get the birth order the age difference. If it's a book on Doris, they do not get the Barbara Hutton facts correct. And when you go back and you're reconstructing this time period, I connected with it because I had similar life experiences. How I discovered this as I worked in entertainment, I was trying to develop a history, history related projects. And I stumbled across a little gossip column about what What happened in Newport in the summer of 1929. And I'm like, wait, that's two months before the stock market crash. Yeah. And the parallel is, is when I was 17, I did a summer program at Brown University, and went, which is in Rhode Island and went two days to Newport. So I had heard about the mansions when I was 17. But I was a poor little girl. So I just went to the beach where it's free. And then like, ate a little restaurant with some of my classmates. But I did have my summer love. It was in the middle of a very difficult year of my life. And when I came home, my brother who had cancer died within a few months. So that's a very significant part of my adolescence. So when I started digging up the information about who was living in Newport at the time, and the stories, I found out that I had already known about Barbara Hutton and Doris Duke, but they were my age, they were 1617. That year, they were my age at Newport. And then what happened to their to them in their lives afterwards, like the marriages, the divorces, even if it's 40 years into the future, like, I could relate all of it. And this year, I was like, hit a block of what I could do with the TV series and decided to turn it into a podcast. And then the question was, what do you do? And I go, Wait, this is podcasting. There's no limitation. You know what I get to choose how to do it myself. If you get just the history, you're missing the emotional. And the first part is to get you the emotional to remember your 16 year old girl, 17 year old girl, you're a woman in love with her husband, like, why are you emotionally making these choices? How do you feel? The second part is the facts. We want to know what that stuff is. If you do a narrative, one little references three pages of material explaining that one little word and then because it's the pandemic, it was like, why would we care about wealthy people? And that was a question I always had for seven years trying to develop the story. And I was like, because once we stopped looking at their wealth, their people and I'm picking people with divorce suicide. A fact is, her mother didn't love her. Well, they don't have a lot of scenarios explaining that or showing that and that's what I'm trying to do is like write episodes, 20 minutes, but it covers it covers suicide, it covers how these people are connected to the discovery of King Tut's tomb.

Anne Marie Cannon: 12:27

That was a great episode that was very your narrative was so good. I was so in it.

Nicki Woodard: 12:36

And that's where my royalty and my love of all history comes in. Because I get to dig in and I get to, like, I see barely a reference. And I'm going like, that's another fact, I got to pull out. The reason I have so many characters is because I'm just trying to cover two or three people's backgrounds. I kept stumbling across another particular person's name. I found this opera singer who ends up having this fabulous story. She was like two references and Doris Duke story she's mentioned here and Barbara Hutton, you know, and then you go over somewhere else. And you see kobina. Right. Same came with jakey. Astor. And then when you dig into their stories and and reconstruct their stories, you run across even more stories, you know, you don't want to tell a story of I just tell you, Barbara Hutton, because that's interesting. But that's also 20 documentaries on her when Barbara Hutton is dealing with kobina, right, or JK Aster, and you're kind of going, are you sure that really happened? And it's like, well, I don't have proof. But they're all running around. I have newspaper articles that say they're all in the same place, or they're all right next to each other, or they have this influence or that influence, you got to have fun with it. Let's go back. And then also let us relate to how it relates to us. You just remember your own first love and what it's like to be in the summer, especially after the pandemic strips. So many young people have that rite of passage. And when the Great Depression hits, they get criticized for just wanting to do what they were raised to do like to have a debutante ball. And I think right now, with what happened this last year, we relate to it going like Well, yeah, they could have a ball. Maybe they should be a little discreet about it. But you don't completely just strip a person of it, if they can, can have a part of it. Like, you know, you start to remember, you start to realize why that was such an important memory for you.

Anne Marie Cannon: 14:29

What helps, I don't think I would be as interested in this concept of humanizing people that are that wealthy. But because I know about this gonna sound weird, but because I know about Anderson Cooper, and I like him and I respect him as a as a journalist just before his mother died, that book came out and they talked about their relationship and the history of his mother who I knew because of her genes, right. Gloria Vanderbilt didn't Jane's there is that continuity. And I feel like he really humanized his family, and gave us information about how it all started for him. And so I think you do an amazing job of humanizing people to the point where I can relate to these people.

Nicki Woodard: 15:18

Well, it's like Gloria actually is somewhat part of this story. She's five years old, one way, our story begins, and there is things that are happening to her. And she's actually like, she was a good little playmate to sabinas daughter, like I said, they keep coming in and colliding where you're going like, well, I can only focus is like, No, no, we're gonna find a way to incorporate all of them.

Anne Marie Cannon: 15:38

Well, I know that I've had to go, I had to go back and listen to two episodes twice, because you can't just you can't listen to it and work and do other things. It's not that kind of a podcast, when did you decide to do the podcast?

Unknown: 15:53

Actually,

Nicki Woodard: 15:53

it occurred to me in February, so I had started my research in February, to turn it into podcasts to release in June, June is National History Month, the documentary competition I did in high school was called history fair. And nationals was in June. And I was going to time it to release around the time of nationals. Now, I never made it to Nationals, I only got to state. But when COVID struck, I was like, wait, I just thought we were gonna have like maybe two, three months of isolation. So it was like if I, if I publish after isolation, I lost my captive audience. There's just there's so many fun things that if you if you tell it the way I think the average person would would normally tell the story. I think you're missing the new side and the new information that we don't normally know.

Anne Marie Cannon: 16:45

I see this as being like a really great series somewhere along the lines of Downton Abbey.

Nicki Woodard: 16:51

Yeah, the the pitch used to be Downton Abbey meets Gossip Girl, or now the crown. Where crown is heavily researched, there is still fictional components to it.

Anne Marie Cannon: 17:02

Yeah, um,

Nicki Woodard: 17:04

but there's leeway. At the same time. I'm such a nerd. It's like, I have to tell them the history facts have to tell the history facts. I have to like, you know, let people know is like, yeah, I'm playing with the history in this section. But I'm not ignoring the real facts. And I'm doing my best to respect them in all capacities. But I need some leeway to get to get to the emotions.

Anne Marie Cannon: 17:26

So would you envision a series having the three part in every episode? Or?

Nicki Woodard: 17:32

I don't think so. I think that's where it got to be unique to podcasting. And I think that's why I'm, I really fell in love with podcasting, when I realized I don't have to have anybody's approval of anyone's notes. I'm just gonna say it exactly the way I want to. And then at least however, whatever path it takes later, it can take but at least I got out my section, I got out my creative side, I got out my history side, my personal, emotional

Anne Marie Cannon: 18:01

implications of this content that you've created, because I was thinking about this yesterday, is all encompassing, you could write a book, somebody is gonna want that series because you have put your heart and soul into the research. And you are a stickler for the historical record and the facts. But at the same time, you allow us you indulge us with the narrative where you bring us into a scenario that you imagine, I'm just I'm really in awe of what you're doing. And,

Nicki Woodard: 18:32

and I like the thing is, I like science fiction. I like all that stuff. But history is my heart. I broke these into tiny episodes, 20 minutes, so that I could focus on a subject I see that I'm telling a soap opera. Each episode follows a theme. The one I just released today is on tennis. You know, I have an episode on suicide. I'll have multiple episodes on suicide. I even talk in the suicide episode, I talk about my history with suicide, where it's very deeply personal.

Anne Marie Cannon: 19:03

Tell us the name of your podcast. And do you have a website?

Nicki Woodard: 19:08

Yes, it's all as the money burns. So that is my podcast. That is my website. That's my Instagram. That's my Facebook page. That's everywhere. I could mark it. I should mark it as far as I

Unknown: 19:21

know.

Anne Marie Cannon: 19:22

As the money burns. So is it as the money burns calm? Yes. Okay, perfect. So where do we see this history in pop culture? And I know that's a hard it's hard to answer because it's everywhere. But go ahead, take a stab.

Nicki Woodard: 19:37

Oh, it is you like fashion. I loved your little lapper gear. Here's some things like you know, in time I will cover it as well in the podcast. But so we see in the 1920s and 30s. We see Art Deco. Art Deco is a combination of multiple cultures. It's Persian, easy, gyptian. It's part a Syrian, and then French. It was developed in France primarily and it really took took a big stride in the 30s. So one Egyptian was partially because King Tut's tomb was discovered in the early 1920s. And so that like we always had a fascination with Egyptian history, like Egyptian history is one of those things that are common through history. But with King Tut's tomb, we got a whole different experience with it. And we got a whole different like the beginning of mass market publicity, kind of elements. But we also see in the 1920s, and 1930s, we see motifs of like Chinese culture, in dress, we start to see the Mandarin collars and the and the silks and stuff. And that actually was to appeal to Barbara Hutton, the designers, she the designers are really trying to appeal to her. She's very interested in Chinese culture, she can speak fluent Mandarin, she wrote Chinese poetry and Chinese characters. So that is, that was an appeal to her and why we start seeing it show up in our culture, sometimes it's little things. And sometimes it's much bigger. You know, what happens when the crash happens, like now if we crash, back then they just shut everything down, in the company was done. And now they know they can partition off and sell off different assets of that company to recuperate some costs. We also have a lot of regulations that have gone in to try to prevent that stuff from happening. It's kind of like it's a weird continuum. Sometimes it's just a building we know, that we see. Or sometimes it's like, it's fashion. Sometimes it's just a reference in pop culture. I mean, come on, like King Tut's mask will no longer travels outside of Egypt. But you know, every couple of years, there's an existing exhibition of King Tut.

Anne Marie Cannon: 21:48

Yeah. I printed that in Florida years ago.

Unknown: 21:51

Mm hmm.

Nicki Woodard: 21:52

Yeah, I saw the one that when it came through LA, within the last 10 years, Polo was originally a game developed by the Persian army. For the Persian king. He's Elite Guard. I just did tennis. So it's like tennis started in the French court and who's the first known name of a tennis player is a king because he died after a tennis match. he crosses over and Wimbledon like this episode to explains how the tie break got developed in tennis. Now, it's not happened in 1929. But one of our characters, her older brother, Louise, her brother, and Vince the tie break, which became part of the system in 1970s. and is now the reason we can televise and watch tennis matches, because otherwise a tennis match could go on for 10 hours without a clearly defined winner. Oh, and yeah, and another thing is, is like and he's referenced, but I tell them more in the history section is at the time when the biggest tennis stars as an American, he's the first American to win Wimbledon in 1920. And he's the first like 10 Grand Slam champion. And his record, which he said in 1930, is not broken until 2017 by Roger Federer at Wimbledon. So it's just like all these things that just kind of come back around. And it's like, yeah, someone who has a tennis history, or interested in tennis or sports, you get it. If you're interested in financial and Ponzi, you're gonna have some episodes and storylines that follow that if you're into teen romances, it follows the development of the first marriages of Barbara Hutton and Doris Duke, and the things we really didn't know about them before they got married. So I'm demystifying the way the story is normally told, which men have to go back in and find information because it's way more convoluted. And it's way more interesting and knowing that information now

Anne Marie Cannon: 23:43

Barbara hadden is an ancestor of Lauren, right?

Nicki Woodard: 23:48

No, they're not related. As far as I know. She that's, it's fine because other people are gonna want to know like they're gonna think it is. It's not. Barbara Hutton is the heir to the Woolworth fortune. And she is one of the examples of cautionary tales. And Doris Duke is the heir to the tobacco fortune and family founded Duke University. And she's a different kind of cautionary tale I met adding more flesh to the story from the frame of what we already knew.

Anne Marie Cannon: 24:19

Yeah. So one of the other things getting back to pop culture, I was realizing how that is such a loaded question, especially with this topic, because there is a popular culture In the 20s, which you talked about art deco, there is the movie, The Great Gatsby, which was a book. And then there's the individuals who are part of our pop culture. Anderson Cooper, I keep going back to him, Gloria Vanderbilt. And so throughout time, we see this and I guess I was thinking before when I first formulated that question, to be a part of every episode was, you know, where do we in pop culture, and I'm thinking of movies, pretty much, yeah. or books or you know, whatever. But there really is a lot more to that question. And I see that with this episode.

Nicki Woodard: 25:12

Well, and the thing is, is like, I don't know if you got the Harlem Renaissance, I think is coming up. So Harlem Renaissance is related to a story regarding kobina, right, and actually brought out one of the biggest famous Harlem choirs get discovered, because of an event she hosted. And then all the things that happen after that, and they end up when elephants fly on Dumbo, as sung by this choir. But their trajectory begins in 1928. In the episode that I described, and how it came like, they were going to be famous no matter what, but this is how they broke out. You know, like when you want to break out like this was the perfect event for them, to not only come out, but to be they came out to the elite, French, English, German Symphony, New York Symphony, Walter damrosch, Maurice Ravel, all these main players and classical music, this choir performed for for one night, and then it just took its own life after that, so and then, and that's what I think is the fun part. Because like, yeah, if I'm just doing it, I'm just doing history the way people used to do history. Did you stay like we're gonna copy me? We we missed those like that. That's enough. When you when you're reading a history book that's like the that's like the quarter page half page, you know, image to the side? Oh, yeah. And by the way, and that's what I always found was interesting and fascinating. And that's what makes all of it more interesting and fascinating. Because Yeah, you can think of wealthy people as just owning a bunch of Picasso's, well, it's kind of different if they actually met Picasso, and he painted it for them.

Anne Marie Cannon: 26:53

What episode Are you at what number

Nicki Woodard: 26:56

I have now, today, I released Episode 17, I'm still not quite to the crash, I wanted to really set up a world the two or three years before the crash. So that when the crash happens, it takes a year for people to realize, Oh, the world's not coming back. Everyone wanted it to be 1929. Again, like the summer of 1929 was magical. You still feel like you're in The Great Gatsby. But you just don't realize it's over. And after it's over, people still want to go back to it. And it takes about a year for them to realize not, but they're acting like crazy people, like you think when you just think oh, well, the crash happens, of course, all the depression and all this stuff. And I was like, that's not how they saw it. They didn't know. They couldn't just turn around and reverse it. I want when you feel like they're being crazy later, I want you to kind of understand, and I want you to understand, like, the dynamics within certain families that was there before all of this went wrong, and how much it gets magnified. And I've done research for some other people in entertainment. And they laugh at me, they're like, you're really passionate about history. And they laugh. And they're like, because I did did a project on civil war error. And they go you talk about these people like you went to high school with them. And High School was like three years ago. So like, when I went to do the podcast, like, yeah, that's how we're going to tell this story. Because same thing, like I said, I was 17 when I went to Newport, I know what it feels like to be a teenager at that time and get your first love. I know what it's like when it falls apart. Now, it took a few more decades for mine to get all messed up. But I know what that's like, I know what the buy in feels like. I know what the betrayal feels like. And I know like you have to. You have to you have to move beyond it too. And sometimes that's not what they learn.

Anne Marie Cannon: 28:46

So how many episodes Do you think this will be? Is it a limited series?

Nicki Woodard: 28:51

Nope. I just plan to tell it till it burns out. The story I'm covering is about six to seven years. So hopefully that will provide if I stay with the every every other week episodes. That's at least three or four years of just straight storytelling.

Anne Marie Cannon: 29:08

Wow. Is there a podcast? It's like that, that follows

Nicki Woodard: 29:13

it I'm very new to podcasting like I discovered podcasting because I was doing a weird admin temp job to pay bills in between trying to get this off as a TV series. So I started listening because I could listen. I could listen to Aaron minkeys lore. I could listen to Dan Carlin's hardcore history, I could listen to Malcolm Gladwell, multiple interviews that are published on YouTube. So at least my brain was having some kind of process going and I was like, Oh, well, I can't wait. They're talking the way my brain works. And every time you try to think of a book, it's like it's very narrow and very focused and you don't go off on all these little tangents and pull them back together. But I started hearing people who did that and I was like, there's a place for me like, yeah, there's no For my voice that I've been trying to do it in one way that just really wasn't working. You know, it's like, I know if that's what I have to do, I'll have I can I can go three or four years easy. It's been a lot of fun because I get all my stuff out of it. And I'm just hoping that I infect other people.

Anne Marie Cannon: 30:16

Yeah, yeah. And that's it. That's how I approach my podcast. I've been thinking about this for a couple years, basically, what's your favorite history? Because I'd love to talk about history. I'm not a historian. So I kind of have learned a lot of the technology prior to doing this and like you, I feel like I found my place. And I'm intrigued by the way that people tell stories. And so I want to be able to tell a story in any way that you can. Is there anything else that you really want to say about your podcast about your future projects, or, you know, anything that you want to get out there in the

Nicki Woodard: 30:55

eye, but I just, I would love for people just start discovering it and have fun, you now get an idea of the topics and the way I'm approaching the subjects. So I, you know, I've got, I've got several years of where I'm going to be going into this stuff. And I'm going to be revisiting the same topics because it's not a one and done some Yes, just keep happening. So it's been a real, it's really great to get it out and to tell people and you know, tell new people, so thank you for having me on your podcast.

Anne Marie Cannon: 31:23

Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. And I'm looking forward to Guilty Pleasures is listening to your podcast, and it's so exciting to know that it's gonna go on. Definitely, to my listeners, do yourself a favor and add this to your subscription queue or, you know, wherever you listen to your podcast, because I think it's like mine. You can pretty much Listen, listen to it wherever you want. All right, you take care. You too. There you have it, Nikki Woodard and as the money burns. To find out more about Nikki in the podcast, be sure to check out our episode notes. In the meantime, thanks for joining us today. Have a great week.