Episode 42: James McKissic, Wilson Woods: From Bill of Sale to Prosperous Land Owner

James McKissic shares the legacy of his great great-great-grandfather, Wilson Woods, who was born into slavery in Meigs County, Tennessee during the 1820's. Wilson's mother was a slave named Mary, his father was also his owner. When Mr. Mckissic's mother shared his ancestor's 1862 bill of sale (between his two white half brothers), with James, he shared it with the National Museum of African American History which began a whole sequence of activities including a Washington Post article and being featured on the Historically Black podcast. Wilson's legacy includes the family farm which is still in the family today.

Henry Louis Gates Jr. article about Wilson Woods: https://www.theroot.com/tracing-your-roots-were-slaves-surnames-like-brands-1796141007

Washington Post, A Hunt for His Slave Ancestor's Bill of Sale Unearthed a Surprising History: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2016/10/03/a-hunt-for-his-slave-ancestors-original-bill-of-sale-unearthed-a-surprising-history/

Historically Black podcast about Wilson Woods:  https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2016/10/03/historically-black-slave-bill-of-sale

Washington Post article:

Chattanooga Times Free Press, New -found relatives gather after slave genealogy project helps them find their roots: https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/life/entertainment/story/2017/may/19/shaking-family-tree-new-found-relatives-gathe/428934/

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hello,

Anne Marie Cannon: 0:01

my name is Anne Marie Cannon and I'm the host of armchair historians. What's your favorite history? Each episode begins with this one question. Our guests come from all walks of life. YouTube celebrities, comedians, historians, even neighbors from the small mountain community that I live in. There are people who love history and get really excited about a particular time, place or person from our distance or not so distant past. The jumping off point is the place where they became curious that entered the rabbit hole into discovery, fueled by an unrelenting need to know more, we look at history through the filter of other people's eyes. armchair historians is a Belgian rabbit production. Stay up to date with us through Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Wherever you listen to your podcast, that is where you'll find us. I'm chair historians as an independent, commercial free podcast. If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad free, you can buy us a cup of coffee through coffee, or you can become a patron through Patreon links to both in the Episode Notes. In this episode of armchair historians, I had the pleasure of talking to James mckissick. A couple of weeks ago, James shared with me the story of his great great, great grandfather Wilson woods. It's quite a remarkable story. Now I found the story by listening to another podcast, historically black, it's a good podcast, I highly recommend it. without going into too much detail. I will tell you that Wilson Woods was born into slavery in the 1820s. And one of the most remarkable things about Wilson is that 1968 he purchased a farm along the Tennessee River that is still in the family today. James mckissick welcome. And thank you for being here today. So what's your favorite history that we're going to be talking about today?

James McKissic: 2:02

Well, Anne Marie, first, thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you today. And my favorite history, which I'm going to share today is about my ancestor Wilson Woods,

Anne Marie Cannon: 2:15

Wilson Woods. So I know a little bit about it, because I found you through a wonderful podcast called historically black, I was so stoked because I am a history, genealogy geek DNA. Hopefully we'll talk a little bit about your DNA results and what you found out. Tell us about Wilson, tell us about this ancestor of yours.

James McKissic: 2:42

Well, Wilson Woods was my great great, great grandfather, and he was enslaved and MiGs County, Tennessee, we think that Well, we know that he was a farmer, a person who grew things. And he was just a really incredible person. Because after emancipation, he went on to work and purchase land. And the exciting thing to me is that that land is still in my family today. So I was you know, love to take an opportunity to tell his story. And also, you know, people are reached out to me a lot about the podcast, you know, historically black and his bill of sale and all of those things. So I'm just here to share today and, and dialogue.

Anne Marie Cannon: 3:30

Well, why don't you tell us about his story? I you know, I don't know the whole story, you know, bits and pieces because of listening to the podcast. And the touchstone for that podcast was his bill of sale?

James McKissic: 3:43

Yeah. So my family had had a copy of his bill of sale for a while. And I just, I mean, I had seen it, and never really thought much about it. I think that a lot of times people try to not think about those types of things. When the National Museum for African American History and Culture opened up with which a lot of people called the Black sonian there were lots of opportunities to really share information about black family history and celebrate Black Heritage in our country. There was a blog that was collecting images of black family artifacts to coincide with the opening of the museum. And I just, it was the weirdest thing I just wanted to did a screenshot of this document and sent it to them because I thought it might be interesting to people. And lo and behold, they used it on the blog. And I mean, I guess it was interesting because it led to being reached out to do a podcast from Minnesota Public Radio, you know, the historically black podcast. It led to an hour article in The Washington Post, lead to lots of other things that we can talk about too. But that was really the impetus for getting all of this started. I think that the wildest thing though, to me was that it led to me actually being able to go to the courthouse in Meigs, County, Tennessee, and see and touch and experience the real documents, which was kind of breathtaking at that point.

Anne Marie Cannon: 5:29

And I was listening to the episode again last night, and they said that you and your mother, put your hand on it. Yeah. And that was, that was a moment. And what did that feel like?

James McKissic: 5:43

It felt it just felt like a moment to connect to him, like who was a real person, really, I can visit his grave anytime, because he's buried in our family cemetery. But that was just as a slab with a name etched into it, you know, I had no concept of this person. But the document and actually seeing it in a book filled with other documents, and, you know, in the calligraphy from the 19th century was just something to behold. And even, you know, it's the wild is part two was, you know, surrounding his bill of sale, were the bill of sales of other black people. But he's had his name on it, you know, he was actually named, but many other ones just said things like a boy to girls, you know, a man, a woman. Um, and those people are attached to families too. But I just think, you know, they will never be able to really connect to their ancestor in that way. Because the names just do not exist. They were not even considered human enough to put a name that will just property.

Anne Marie Cannon: 7:01

It's the thing that strikes me and doing research. I'm researching a woman named Claire Brown. She went, have you ever heard of her?

James McKissic: 7:09

I don't think so. Can you tell me a little about? Well, Clara

Anne Marie Cannon: 7:13

Brown is a woman that came into hers is one of those stories like she was a slave. She was born in 18 118 59. She gets her freedom. She was married and had a bunch of kids. And they got separated because the plantation owner died and the family sold off their property. And she never forgot about that. So when she was freed, she had to leave the state that she was in because at the time, slavery still existed in the south. And it was before the Civil War. And so she had heard that one of her daughters had come out west. And so she found a way to get passage on you know, wagon train coming out to Colorado. And she was 59 years old. Okay. And after that hard life that she lived, and she the way she did it is she cleaned the laundry and made food for the people on the wagon train, she comes out to Central City area. And she sets up a shop where she's doing laundry, but she's also a really good Christian woman, you know, she's always taking care of the needy, you know, black or white, whatever. Out West in when people are just trying to get it together, you know, set up, these are basically exploited native lands, but set up these towns, the discrimination. I don't want to say it wasn't as bad because it was, but there were more people who are willing to work with the community. And she was one of those women that was people that was taken into the community. White and Black Light, like respected her. So aunt Clara doesn't find her children. But she sets up a laundry and she puts away$10,000 cleaning other people's clothes. She invests in an African American mining company here in the town I live in. She was very, even though she didn't live here. She had a lot of influence on this town. And when the Civil War was over, she took that money. She went back to the south, and she looked for her family and friends. She brought back 30 people that had been freed. A lot of them settled here in the town I live in and she didn't find any of her children but She I think she found one of her nieces. Anyway. So they come here she's spent all of her money on this venture. She's destitute because of it. But because she had won the the love and respect of so many people, that people here in Colorado, a lot of people petitioned the government to give her pioneers pension, women at the time, pioneers pension, but because they felt that she embodied the spirit of the pioneer in all positive ways. She was the first and maybe only but I'm not sure about that woman to collect the pioneers pension. And she went Knights fan. Sorry, I'm surprised more people don't know about her that's become my goal is

James McKissic: 10:46

it almost sounds like the script for a movie?

Anne Marie Cannon: 10:50

Oh, yeah, definitely. But I will tell you there's one other caveat about this. In the end, just before she dies, she does find one of her daughters were able to reconnect. And so I don't know, as I was thinking about this show and interviewing you, I was thinking, I wonder if I wonder if I could find her children. You know, like I'm having this thought, like, maybe I can, is so hard, though, because they could have like when they were split up, they might have just been listed, as you know, boy, groom, older boy. Well, we do have one known child from her. And if any of that this is what I'm thinking, if any of the offspring of that child had their DNA done. I know it would be you know what, it's it would be a long life, long life pursuit. But maybe somebody has already done it. And I don't know it. But I just felt, I've always felt this kinship with Aunt Clara, from way before when I came here. And then I thought maybe it's true

James McKissic: 12:01

that the DNA can open up so many different, I mean, just connections and opportunities. And, you know, I can tell you the stories about how after the podcast happened, and you know, I did a DNA test, it just linked me to lots of new family members and new experiences. But yeah, I mean, if one of them data directives, and you had the the descendant let you know, do what they they could be connected.

Anne Marie Cannon: 12:32

It stuff, I'm thinking we'll see I have a lot of energy around it. So we'll see if I, you know how far I go with it. But let's get back to your family. And why. Tell me the narrative of Wilson.

James McKissic: 12:45

Wilson was born around, I think 1820. It's so hard to pinpoint, you know, because of the record keeping and whatnot. And that's the story that we always heard was it? Well, I'll tell you, the wild thing is that the story that we always heard in our family was that the man in our family came through Wilson's wife and Sarah Taliaferro, who was Wilson's wife, come to find out, you know, with the research and everything we understand now that that's not the case that the land was actually purchased by Wilson. But Sarah played a huge part because one thing that I've learned is the way that the women in my family have preserved and maintained the land assets and pass them to the next generation. So even after Wilson died, Sarah held on to it, then pass it on to their children, who even some of those males died early, but their wives pass it on. And the land now has been inherited because my grandmother passed it on who was married to a descendant of Wilson, his name was James Wood. That was my grandfather. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So you know, it's kind of interesting to like you said about Clara, on the farm. There's a cemetery that was used by the community and by the family, which is still there. There was a school and a church like a one room schoolhouse last church, which was built on it no longer exists, but the foundation is still there. But that was where the children of course would go to school, but also where the families would go to church and other families from around the area would go to church. So there was a lot of that back then, you know, especially after emancipation of people, pooling resources working together, doing what they had to do as as families communities to provide the things that were needed, like education, like churches, and you really see that within our family too. And lots of other families. But um, what I did learn is that, you know, Wilson did purchase his farm for around$2,000. Wow. And what year was this? This would have been like in 18. I think 18 around.

Anne Marie Cannon: 15:29

I wonder what that I wonder how much that would be worth today?

James McKissic: 15:33

I know, right? Probably a lot. But that was what was so interesting is that he worked after emancipation, and I get saved up his money and didn't purchase his land. And we even found evidence of what was growing on the land and some of the historical records. So he was growing things like tobacco corn, he had pigs, just, you know, just I guess it was a typical homestead of, you know, post emancipation type homestead. And they lived and worked. They have lots of children, and

Anne Marie Cannon: 16:13

kids did they have?

James McKissic: 16:15

So I think it was like, 11 children total, not all of them survived.

Anne Marie Cannon: 16:20

Okay, so one of the questions I have is, because I remember, I was looking at your family tree last night. And it seems like some of those kids were born when he was still enslaved.

James McKissic: 16:35

Yeah, I think some of them were born enslaved, and then some are born after emancipation, too. Okay.

Anne Marie Cannon: 16:42

So what do we know about his origins as far as his, you know, his father, that type of thing.

James McKissic: 16:51

So it's been, since the bypass, one thing that I've learned is I'm, so one of my, one of my new cousins. And that's a story I can tell you. I'm reached out to Dr. Henry Louis Gates, Jr. Because they do a blog about black genealogy on this website called the root. And ask them because there were some Andrew policies around the dates of when Wilson was born when the document was signed, that just did not really add up. So Dr. Gates to him kind of looked into this.

Anne Marie Cannon: 17:30

Wow, Dr. Gates team I love he's like my favorite. Like, I was thinking about all the questions I want to ask you. And he always asked that question. So what does it make you feel like when you see that document

James McKissic: 17:45

tells you what I felt like. But um, but what we've learned is that Wilson is really positively the brother of William and Samuel, the people who were doing the transaction, not so much the son of one of them. So we really feel like Wilson, Samuel and William woods, who were all part of the transaction are brothers and that Wilson was actually the Son of the Father, like, Oh, so yeah. Because it just the way that he doctor goes, his description was is that the people that were actually purchasing or transferring Wilson's ownership would have been too young to be willing. Okay, they probably were more like brothers.

Anne Marie Cannon: 18:38

I say, That's interesting.

James McKissic: 18:40

Yeah, dad isn't. But no one. I mean, we'll I guess we'll never know, you know, we just will never know.

Anne Marie Cannon: 18:46

Well, I think that one of the most interesting things is that Wilson is a family name. And then he was given a family last name. And not to mistake in the fact that he was an enslaved person, by his own father, siblings, whatever. But there does seem to be some indication that he might have had preferential treatment. I don't know. What do you think about that?

James McKissic: 19:15

I mean, it could be I mean, we do hear about that, you know, where pay enslavers have children by enslaved women. And some of them you know, do that do things like try to keep them provided? You also hear the opposite where they have their children and they sell them beat them, you know, just do all the terror that that comes with being enslaved.

Anne Marie Cannon: 19:44

Well, it's shades of gray, isn't it?

James McKissic: 19:47

Yeah. And then to this, this part of Tennessee, East Tennessee is part that really resisted becoming part of the Confederacy for a while but they still ended. Doing it but there was much more affiliation with the union versus so much the Confederacy to

Anne Marie Cannon: 20:09

it. They're all stories that that are worth telling. But also, like you said, and I liked that you brought it up, there were all these other spells of sales, you know, to girls. That that is as much as their stories we know. And we need to tell that story as we know it.

James McKissic: 20:29

Yeah.

Anne Marie Cannon: 20:30

Yeah. Yeah. And I like that you brought that up.

James McKissic: 20:34

Because you think about what was going on in the individuals life, but there was this whole political and social environment, you know, swirling around them, too. So. And that's one of the things I thought was interesting. I had not gone back to the historically black website for a long time. But I see now that when they had no link to the podcast, they kind of put it in the context of what's going on, like the Bill of Sale would have been signed, like the year after the Civil War. But you know, so there's so much going on, like, Abraham Lincoln elected president Nat Turner, and the rebellions happened all before that, but afterward, on you know, it just, it's in that period, but during the war and right before the Emancipation Proclamation,

Anne Marie Cannon: 21:25

now we have this new piece of information that I didn't know about his paternal his father, which does would make sense what you said, what Dr. Gates said.

James McKissic: 21:40

I think I'm gonna trust is because, you know, yeah, doing this. But the other thing that I pointed out, too, is when you look at the bill of sale, you can tell that Wilson wood, the white Wilson wood is no I mean, William wood is is probably deceased are no longer in the area, that the document was actually signed and executed after the fact. Okay, like after the transaction transaction had already taken place.

Anne Marie Cannon: 22:13

I see. So now does he change where he's living or anything when they

James McKissic: 22:19

know continued leaving in the same area, the farm is in the same area. And then the children that he had, the one I'm descended from? is a male, a boy named pink called pink, I saw that name and that Yeah, that was his name. And he was a farmer and herbalist. A very fascinating person and, you know, live for many years. And then he is the father of James Wood, who is my grandfather.

Anne Marie Cannon: 22:55

And now did your mom grow up on the farm?

James McKissic: 22:59

She did not grow up on the farm, but she grew up, you know, with access to it and visiting it in the period between in their family history like that nuclear family, some of the older children were born on the farm, and then they moved to a more a larger area called Cleveland as a family and then a lot of the children were born. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, but Cleveland is only like a few 10 or 20 minute drive.

Anne Marie Cannon: 23:30

And the farm what, what county is that in? Is that in makes,

James McKissic: 23:34

it's in my County, Tennessee.

Anne Marie Cannon: 23:37

So he goes from? Was it a plantation that he lived on?

James McKissic: 23:47

I don't even think a plantation like this part of East Tennessee is not really known for the big plantations, just the the enslaved people here were a lot more farm workers or skilled crafts persons, you know, blacksmith, some things like that. And they were just, they were owned or enslaved by people in the community.

Anne Marie Cannon: 24:13

So then he gets his freedom. Just the Is it the year before the Civil War ends? Yes, because Tennessee is now under union rule.

James McKissic: 24:29

And we have a lot of camp. There were some camps called contraband camps. Where if you can imagine Tennessee and our river kind of puts through our state below the river, a lot of that was still Confederate. And above the river was union. So a lot of people would escape across the river to the union side and stay in camps or contraband camps because they were going Considered contraband, you know, objects again, that was the that was what was going on in a lot of places, or

Anne Marie Cannon: 25:09

what side of the river was Wilson.

James McKissic: 25:12

Wilson would have been on the south side of the river, but very, is actually very close to the river, though. So the farm now actually, there's another river that kind of feeds into the Tennessee River. It's called the hiyc River. And his farm is on the hiyc River. And that's on the north side. Those dowels on,

Anne Marie Cannon: 25:40

how does he come into the money to buy this property? Do we know?

James McKissic: 25:46

No one knows. I mean, he must have just worked and saved. I mean, I wish I had that work ethic, that ability to save like my, I have the work ethic, but it's the saving that I wish I wish I had. But yeah, saving. And

Anne Marie Cannon: 26:05

so you're saying that was probably about 1880 when he bought the property. So he had 15 years? It clearly has saved $10,000 in a matter of a couple of years. So

James McKissic: 26:16

yeah, so it could be nine. So

Anne Marie Cannon: 26:18

he was just determined. So we're all of his children by Sara,

James McKissic: 26:24

Tamara Anderson, and they all were so

Anne Marie Cannon: 26:26

they were together. They were on the farm, though. Wood farm. So they were like, partners? Yes, they were, they had a lot of kids too. They had good genes.

James McKissic: 26:42

Well, that's the interesting thing is that so chromosome two more into the present, the descendants of those different kids, like some of them are still in their area, some are not. And then some we just never knew what happened, whether they had kids whether they lived, who knows. But after taking the ancestry DNA test, we actually found branches of the family, you know, descendants of other kids, and connected to them. A year later, like a year after the podcast and the articles and whatnot. We had a group of family members come to Tennessee and we had at the farm, and they got to go visit the courthouse to see the Bill of Sale. Got to tour the lands, visit the cemetery. And this is where people from California Hawaii sign up. About showed up. Do was at least I would say at that time. And that's include not including the ones that all are from here who joined and and came together to so it is so amazing. Yeah.

Anne Marie Cannon: 28:00

That's what I love about the DNA. It's that tangibility of you know, we share this we share this ancestor. Yeah, even finding a document or another piece of the story. I love that. That's amazing.

James McKissic: 28:17

And a lot of them were that ancestor or their descendants of Moses, who you probably see on the family tree. And Moses was the oldest child of Sarah, and Wilson. Okay. And what we what we feel is that he emigrated like many black people did north to St. Louis, and then you know, that family grew and expanded from there. Okay,

Anne Marie Cannon: 28:45

interesting.

James McKissic: 28:46

Yeah. So some stayed in the north, some stays in the south, some stayed in the north. We have people in DC, St. Louis, on different places around the country.

Anne Marie Cannon: 29:00

That's amazing that you've been able to connect that way. And so many people found you through the DNA. Now did those people have any idea until the DNA that this was their ancestor, that they were able to latch on to your tree and understand their history more?

James McKissic: 29:21

I don't think

Anne Marie Cannon: 29:23

that was a big epiphany for them.

James McKissic: 29:27

It really was because I knew, I think they knew the name of Moses. And Moses had a daughter who was named Magnolia and that was like the person who really was the start of the large family there. So they were very intimately aware of them, but I don't think they had ever connected it back to Tennessee and never I guess in their wildest dreams would think about actually connecting it to a place like a plot, you know, coordinates on a map that

Anne Marie Cannon: 29:58

was that tangible Have going to a place.

James McKissic: 30:02

Yeah, but it to me and it is really sad to say this, but, and I had always had access to it my entire life. So I never thought of what a big deal it was, you know, when I was growing up, I got every family had a cemetery, that that was just the norm, that these things got passed down, you know that people could actually tell me stories about my ancestors, but it's just it's not and especially for a lot of black families just not not the case. Because the history has just been erased or or undocumented. Or in some cases, you know, the more violent or hurtful things have just been covered up and not disclosed ever again. So yeah,

Anne Marie Cannon: 30:55

I'm really grateful that you're here to share this history with me, I, when I started the podcast, I knew that I wanted to have these casual conversations with people about history. And as I've gotten into it, one of the things that I have really tried to do is seek out stories whose history has, like you said, been erased, has been hidden in the shadows, I really want to bring those stories out into the light. Because, you know, the telling of history that I got when I was growing up was, you know, the white male history, I'll just say that I'll put it that way. And, you know, it was not true was not the real history. And so there's so many different nuances. There's so many bigger things that we need to know about, that we as human beings are capable of. in negative and positive. Yeah, when you agreed to be on the show, I'm just like, thank you so much.

James McKissic: 32:00

Well, I was just gonna say like, what I think what I've learned, especially over the past few years, is that you can tell the story through so many different lenses. Yes, I think about Wilson's story, we could probably tell it from an endogenous lens, you know, because, you know, they were being pushed out of the area, losing their land, we could tell this story from the lens of the why a woman who's married to whomever Wilson's that is, I mean, because she's watching him, you know, have these relationships and, you know, without consent with these black women, you know, that's a whole other story. There's a story that Wilson would tell there's a story, there's just all these lenses. And I think that the the more lenses we can look at, or look at these stories through and look at history through the richer it is. And a lot of what we hear in our country now is only tell it one way, like you said that the one way or the the white male version of history. And that's just not the case. Because, you know, so many people were involved in the history of our country from different lives and different perspectives.

Anne Marie Cannon: 33:23

That was well put. So what else do we need to know about Wilson?

James McKissic: 33:30

Well, if you would like to ever visit him, you can come to my families, your material, which is in Meigs County, it's called the woods, the cemetery. It's not far from the banks or the hiyc River. It's a quiet place. I was out there. Not long ago, because we had to bury one of our nephews. And I was just thinking to myself, like, so many other people that I ever loved. And the people who made me, you know, are in this space, which makes it a really sacred place for me. And it's also a place where I have good memories, like my dad would take us camping out there in the cemetery. Which is probably where I've gotten my morbid sense of humor from from those childhood experiences.

Anne Marie Cannon: 34:25

So is it a private cemetery? Is it or is it a community cemetery?

James McKissic: 34:30

So it started more privately, it's on the family land. But there are there are some community aspects to it, because at certain points, and in our state's history, for example, you might have an interracial couple, you know, back in the 70s, or 80s. And they might have to be buried there because and they might not be family members, but that might be the only cemetery that said, you know, come can be here. So it's it's, it's a, it's for all family members and then people adjacent to the families. So

Anne Marie Cannon: 35:09

it's open to the public.

James McKissic: 35:11

It is Yeah, you can, if you can find it, it's there's no sign

Anne Marie Cannon: 35:16

that you know what, that's a good thing. It'll pretend

James McKissic: 35:20

Yes, you can find it, it's open to the public, you can walk through I mean, it's got new stones, you know, from last year, all the way back to just rocks from, you know, the 19th century. So, it's a fascinating place, because, you know, everyone, just some just didn't have they just got burned, you'd ride in the ground, with a rock or with a stone or a wooden cross, you know, just to, to mark where they had been. So, yeah, there are parts that are very primitive.

Anne Marie Cannon: 35:57

So what is the one thing you want my listeners to remember about this history?

James McKissic: 36:03

I will just remember that, you know, as we, as we explore genealogy, and really celebrate our family histories that we always keep in mind. People who don't have that ability, or for whom it's much harder, because of the way that their ancestors were recorded in our country's history, recorded and regarded, you know, I'm, I'm lucky because I do have the name, and I can trace my name to the person. And then I can work to trace the names back, you know, another generation, another generation. But all of us don't have that. So I just think we should just be aware that genealogy is tough, and it's tougher for some people. Yeah.

Anne Marie Cannon: 36:58

Is there anything else that you want us want to share about the history or about your family or something I didn't ask, you

James McKissic: 37:08

know, I just I want to just say, you know, thank you for the opportunity to share. And I'll try to send you the links to that Henry, Louis Gates article, and anything else that your listeners might be interested in? And if they want to reach out to me, and just talk or share, I would love that to you because I love hearing other people's family histories as well to page Yeah.

Anne Marie Cannon: 37:32

I really enjoyed talking to you today. James, thanks so much for being here.

James McKissic: 37:38

Thank you, and thanks for the opportunity to share with other armchair historians.

Anne Marie Cannon: 37:43

Oh, I like that. Nobody's ever said that. There you have it. James mckissick. In his great, great, great grandfather Wilson woods. For more in Wilson woods, including the Henry Louis Gates article, do check out our episode notes. Thanks for listening. Have a great week.