Ethan Healey, Mary Todd Lincoln, Her Seances and Spiritualism

In this episode, Anne Marie chats with Ethan Healey about Mary Todd Lincoln and her desire to connect with the spirits of her loved ones, including two children who died in childhood, through seances and spiritualism.

Ethan Healey is a BA History student at New England College in Henniker, NH. His thesis is on John Adams during retirement and how Adams views the legacy he left behind. Ethan's work has been featured in The Henniker Review, a local college publication. He is currently in the process of graduate school applications and hopes to be studying for a Ph.D. in History next Fall.

Resources:
Ethan's Blog:  https://ethanhealey.home.blog/
Twitter:  @EthanHealey

Wikipedia
Mary Todd Lincoln: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Todd_Lincoln
Spiritualism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism
Seance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Séance
William H. Mumler, Spirit Photographer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Mumler

LIncoln, Movie Trailer: https://youtu.be/lTA5rdz51XI

Episodes Mentioned: Caroline Welling Van Deusen, Elizabeth Dixon: https://bit.ly/3miVXAu

Support Armchair Historians:
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/armchairhistorians
Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/belgiumrabbitproductions

Transcript

Anne Marie Cannon: 0:00

Hello, my name is Anne Marie Cannon and I'm the host of armchair historians. What's your favorite history? Each episode begins with this one question. Our guests come from all walks of life. YouTube celebrities, comedians, historians, even neighbors from the small mountain community that I live in. There are people who love history and get really excited about a particular time, place or person from our distance or not so distant past. The jumping off point is the place where they became curious that entered the rabbit hole into discovery. Fueled by an unrelenting need to know more, we look at history through the filter of other people's eyes. armchair historians is a Belgian rabbit production. Stay up to date with us through Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Wherever you listen to your podcast that is where you'll find us. I'm chair historians as an independent, commercial free podcast. If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad free, you can buy us a cup of coffee through coffee, or you can become a patron through Patreon links to both in the Episode Notes. Hello fellow armchair historians. This episode marks the beginning of armchair historians Halloween season. I know it's only September, but that's how much I love Halloween. So from now until the end of October, I will be interviewing people talking about their favorites. Spooky history. I'm talking seances in the White House vampire scares in New England and one of Canada's most infamous massacres of a family and the subsequent haunting of the town in which that family live. Don't worry. For all of my straight history fans, there's going to be plenty of history. So buckle up everybody and enjoy the ride. Before we begin, I'd like to give a big shout out to our Patreon and cofee supporters. So a big heartfelt thank you goes out to Ruth Rosenfeld Beverly next tremors oh eight. Paul boat Scott Greenberg, Edward Graham and David Carroll. Your support means the world to us. If you would like to support the show, you can find links on our website for both Patreon and cofee in this episode of armchair historians. I checked with Ethan Healy about Mary Todd Lincoln, and her desire to connect with the spirits of her loved ones, including to children who died in childhood through seances and spiritual ism. Ethan is finishing up his BA in history at New England College in Henniker, New Hampshire. his thesis is on john adams during retirement and how Adams views the legacy he left behind. Ethan's work has been featured in the Henniker review, a local college publication. He is currently in the process of graduate school applications and hopes to be studying for a PhD in history. next fall, Ethan Healy, welcome. And thank you for being here today.

Ethan Healy: 3:11

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Anne Marie Cannon: 3:14

Sure. I'm super excited about the upcoming Halloween season. And this is going to be the first interview that I do that's going to be part of that historical history for Halloween. So why don't you tell me about your favorite history that you're going to be talking about today?

Ethan Healy: 3:32

When you ask that question, when we were talking in pre production, I really thought about this for quite a bit. And I was like, What is my favorite history? And I kind of have two answers to this question. I have a fun one and a serious one. The fun one is that a lot of my favorite history is typically within the early America age and really finding out a lot about the early American Republic, and trying to figure out why were those men and a lot of times women, why were those people so fascinated with creating a new republic, and I love the early politics and the ruthlessness of the early republic. But my more serious answer is really my favorite kind of history is the one where we're always asking questions. And we're constantly digging into the whys of history. I'm very fascinated with the whys of history and the whys in the house. That's really what a lot of history is, is really just continuously asking the questions. Why did this happen? How did this happen? And so much so that it has turned into dissertations. And at the end of the day, we're all history geeks, and history buffs and all that stuff. And we're all just trying to learn about the whys of history. So for what I'm going to talk about today, I stumbled upon this quite a few years ago, I've always been very fascinated with Abraham Lincoln. I think a lot of people are he's still a major political icon. I stumbled upon this, not because of Halloween or anything like that, that maybe some of your viewers are doing now for your lovely addition to the historical community. I stumbled upon this a few years ago in one of the one of the classes I was taking, and I was fascinated by it. And of course, I had to learn more and going back to like my serious answer to why, you know, why was she having seances in the White House? And why was she so fascinated with spiritualism? A lot of these questions, you know, leads to Google searches and Google searches leads to deep research and, you know, you go into that rabbit hole.

Anne Marie Cannon: 5:45

So when you say she, for my listeners, who are we talking about?

Ethan Healy: 5:51

Mary Lincoln, Mary Todd Lincoln, this would be Abraham Lincoln's wife.

Anne Marie Cannon: 5:58

Now did she have the stances prior to her husband's death?

Ethan Healy: 6:04

She did. It started for her. After her second son, Willie Lincoln died. And he died of typhoid fever. In the second year of Abraham Lincoln's presidential administration, his death, more so than any others, really affected her. But they had another son named Edward Lincoln, who, who also passed away. But this one really affected her because it was in the middle of, again, a presidential administration. Well, not quite the middle of the Civil War, but we're in the middle of a war. And on top of this, her son has now passed away. So she really got deep into the idea of spiritual realism. She's always she was always a very spiritual person. But she really deep dived into that after her son Willy died of typhoid fever, which was very common and that day. So she really deep dived into that. And she started holding seances in the White House. Well, actually, she started doing it, as she found a local group near Washington, DC. And it's kind of interesting to imagine a first lady walking around Washington, DC. That's completely unheard of now, by herself. But she found a local group, she really fit in and she really started liking it that she started holding her own seances at the at the White House, and she really fell into it.

Anne Marie Cannon: 7:31

I feel like Mary Lincoln is one of the most misunderstood historical characters. Can you just tell us a little bit about your perception of her her personality? And maybe why she has been so misunderstood?

Ethan Healy: 7:49

Yeah, whenever I hear about Mary Lincoln, you always hear the fact that she was crazy, or she had a lot of mental illnesses, and including her husband, Abraham Lincoln, saying that she had a lot of difficulties. And I think a lot of it is is trauma and tragedy in her life, I cannot fathom the idea of not only losing a single child, but losing another. And then eventually she loses a third after Abraham Lincoln dies about 10 years after that. But yeah, and also her husband. So she just has all of these tragedies. And I think a lot of it, especially in the in the age where we're really talking about mental health as a really big issue and a really big epidemic, so to speak, where people are really talking openly about their mental health. They weren't mental health is was never a big discussion. And there's been, you know, even speculation about it's kind of been proven now that Abraham Lincoln had severe depression. And she did too. And I think the reason why she's so misunderstood is because it's so easy to label someone with a mental illness, specifically a woman with a mental illness. It's so very easy to say, you know, for that time, while she was just crazy.

Anne Marie Cannon: 9:14

I'm trying to think of some of the indicators, you know, some example of, well, this is indicative of her, you know, mental health issue, what behavior what thing did she do that was so, you know, away from the norm. I think

Ethan Healy: 9:35

she was very, she was a very vocal woman. She was, she was a woman who is someone who was not afraid to talk about her husband's political aspirations. She was not a woman that we would think of, in the traditional sense in the 19th century of you know, although there were difficulties that they had in their marriage. She really stuck up for her husband and she She, of course loved her husband, she was not afraid to stick out for him. She hosted a lot of parties at the White House, within hosting parties and stuff, she would simply introduce herself. And she would intrude and the senators would come up to her and she would talk down to them and say, How could you do this to my husband? How could you vote no on that bill? How could she was very educated, very politically educated as well. And, you know, it's very similar to someone like, you know, Abigail Adams, who was, you know, the wife of john adams, who was someone who was also very politically inclined and always put her opinion, although she moreso did it to just her husband, Mary Lincoln was more so someone who just did it, she'd she said, I'm gonna speak about the bills he's trying to pass about the the difficulties he's having about the, you know, she was very open about all that. And she was very educated. And a lot of times educated women. At this time were seen as just taboo, I suppose it's a really awful word to say, but it's the truth when speaking in the terms of, of women and that day, people and the funny thing is that some people, you know, really took her seriously, but others we, you know, we're kind of telling Lincoln, like, you need to calm your wife down. She needs to, you know,

Anne Marie Cannon: 11:21

yeah, you need to reel her in, dude. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And

Ethan Healy: 11:26

Lincoln kind of responds like I, you know, I can't control her.

Anne Marie Cannon: 11:29

I was just gonna say that that's kind of what always my perception has been is that she was vocal. And that was unprecedented in that time. And men were supposed to be in control of their women and their wives and all that type of thing. And so she was just she reminds me of my mother. She was just one of those people who would just say what she thought, exactly, that something that has been done for ages is that, oh, she's just crazy. And, you know, I'm sure she did struggle with mental health issues, but at the same time, today, she would probably be somebody to look up to and that type of thing. But thank you, that was a very good drawing of her personality and getting back to the spiritual realism in the seances. Now that we kind of have that idea of who she was. I mean, how did she get in touch with these people? And how did her husband view her use of spiritual ism and seances? Was he at the seances

Ethan Healy: 12:31

it's speculated that he was at a few There are even some pictures not photographs, but paintings and drawings of him at some of these, there's, you know, a lot of speculation he was there but then the the rumors were disproven, some people saw that it was a political point that making these drawings of Abraham Lincoln in this spiritual sense doing a seance for his his son, but also doing it for the soldiers that were dying in in the American Civil War. But also it was a political move to show him in an ordinary state someone who is grieving someone who is trying to process all of this and it's worth noting really that spiritual ism was not new at the American Civil War spiritual ism has been a there's a very long history of spiritualism the American Civil War completely changed the way that that we thought about death and by we I mean Americans and it completely changed the game so to speak on how people process death how people grieved about death, you know, because for a long time, especially in the 17th century with the Salem witch trials and stuff, you know, talking about witchcraft and seances and all these things. The point is is that spiritual ism as always been around in the Civil War completely changed the way we thought about spiritualism and how to react and to go to your question on how she found these people. He was really a like a connection thing kind of, he said she said type thing where she knew I don't know the exact person but she knew another woman and that woman practice spiritual ism and seances

Anne Marie Cannon: 14:12

so spiritualism How would you define that?

Ethan Healy: 14:17

I would define it as somebody who is trying to get in touch with other spirits who have passed on you could define it in many other ways you could you know also say you're in touch with yourself. It's really the the definition of spiritual ism has completely changed within, you know, the last few decades of spiritual especially now to spiritually especially, and it's completely is completely changed, but in her day, I think spiritual ism really meant that she was practicing getting in touch with the dead and Practicing getting in touch with, in that sense herself, you know, how was she grieving about the death of her son or the death of Abraham Lincoln. And she really grieved very, very differently with the death of her son and the death of of Lincoln and many ways.

Anne Marie Cannon: 15:14

So was with spiritualism necessarily have a Christian component to it?

Ethan Healy: 15:22

That's a very good question. And the only thing I would say about that is there's definitely connection there. I don't think you could have a spiritualist component without connecting it somehow to Christianity. The religion of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln's is heavily debated. Some people say that Abraham Lincoln is an atheist. But other people say that Lincoln practice Christianity others say that he didn't. There's no evidence of him committing to Christianity or anything like that. But for more so for Mary Lincoln, I think it was rather than a religious component. And I guess it is type of it is a sort of a branch off of religion, rather for than it being a religious component for her. I think it was really a deep sense of just trying to get in touch with herself and how she was learning how to grieve.

Anne Marie Cannon: 16:24

So do you have any specific descriptions of one particular seance that she was involved in? And what happened? And then kind of the other question I have is, do you think that it was shyster ism on the part of the people who were doing the seances

Ethan Healy: 16:44

as far as a story there, there is a story of after Willie Lincoln passed away, she was obviously very depressed and really not in not in the correct mindset. So much so that people had, you know, hide knives away, and she became very suicidal. And she became very suicidal after the death of Abraham Lincoln as well. More on that later. So there is a story where she held a seance and she came to Abraham Lincoln, it's either Abraham Lincoln or one of our secretaries, and told them, I see him I see him, I see Willie, I see Willie and she says something to the effect, I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but something to the effect of I feel so much more comforted knowing that, that he's here with me, he's next to me. And he's really trying his best to, to come back to me these these types of things that that mothers would would feel sure, these type of things that mothers would want. So knowing that and knowing that story, she definitely felt a major sense of, of comfort from this and a major sense of, to her this, this worked. And to her this was a major step in in the right direction for trying to connect with her son again.

Anne Marie Cannon: 18:03

So do you think that the people who she went to to do the seances, do you think that they were the real deal? Or that they definitely believed in what they were doing? Do you think there was any, you know, shyster isn't involved in any of it?

Ethan Healy: 18:22

There definitely was some of that, to kind of comment on the on the picture that you had tweeted out for your viewers who don't know there's this picture of Mary Todd Lincoln sitting down on a chair. And there's this ghost of Abraham Lincoln right behind her. And it's a really somber photo, you can see the kind of the look in her eyes is really dark. It's it's kind of like you can look in her eyes and know that, you know that that woman's going through a lot, the photographer who took that, and let me see if I can come up with his name here. I don't know what his name is. William mumbler, was his name. And he was a spiritualist photographer. And he was committed for fraud. Because he was creating these pictures that were seemingly everyone who went to him, had a kind of spirit come up behind them. And it was that exact spirit. It wasn't a it was the spirit that they were looking for, so to speak. So in knowing that she knew that going into this, that he was a fraud, and that his practice, so to speak, was a legitimate, but she still requested it, even though many people told her I don't think it's a good idea. And by many people, you know, her family, her sister, all these things. You know, I don't think it's a good idea, but she wanted to do it. She really wanted to do it to connect with her husband and she felt that You know, this is hyperbole, of course. But she felt in essence that if she went to this photographer and she could see it, then she could kind of believe it. And she was that that type of person. And again, a large part of this is to comfort herself. I think.

Anne Marie Cannon: 20:20

It reminds me of Queen Victoria, because she did a lot of the same stuff. From what I've heard and read. What else? What else about this? Do we need to know?

Ethan Healy: 20:33

I think some of the things that we definitely need to, to know is the fact that there was probably a total of eight seances that took place in the White House. It's also very well known that Abraham Lincoln is one of the most popular ghosts at the White House. His Spirit is the most seen at the White House, there have been many people who have claimed to see Abraham Lincoln at the White House. Winston Churchill is one of those who saw a but

Anne Marie Cannon: 21:10

might have been drinking too much. And

Ethan Healy: 21:12

exactly that was that was probably that was probably

Anne Marie Cannon: 21:17

no i'm not saying I don't, I don't believe in this stuff. Because I kind of do. I mean, I get it, like I get Mary's jam there. Because I know when I've lost people in my life, I've gone to, you know, mediums and that type of thing. Like I get it, I get why you do that, because it's so hard to deal with. I have a tour business here in Georgetown, the other Georgetown, Georgetown, Colorado, and I do ghost tours, and history tours. I started out just doing history tours, but someone said, Oh, you should do ghost tours. And so I've done one straight history tour all season because the ghost tours are really popular. And I think it's kinda it's kind of the same thing. It's kind yet same desire. And that's what I say during the tour. It's that thing, it's a big question. We want to know the answer to we want to talk about it, we want to think about it, we want to share our stories about it. So yeah, I get it. And I'm not saying like I don't believe there is something I do believe there's something and doing ghost tours is really kind of made me there's a couple things that have happened that I just have no explanation for. And so yeah. D What do you think about it?

Ethan Healy: 22:35

I am a man, I'm a ghost agnostic, whatever that means. It's never happened to me. Particularly I've never seen a ghost or a spirit or anything like that. I've done the Weegee board stuff I've done a lot of it seems very Voodoo ish to me, but I definitely respect those who believe it and I you know, that said, I'm still willing to believe it. Just because it hasn't happened to me doesn't mean that it's wrong or it doesn't mean that I you know, I'm wrong or anything. But I'd like to believe that at the end of all this, we go to some place better than this. And you know, at the end of it at the end of this we go and we live along and happier life whatever that may mean, you know there's definitely something there there's there's got to be you know, it's it's kind of like I don't want to just give up the idea that it couldn't possibly happen.

Anne Marie Cannon: 23:38

I feel like most people who come on my tours, aside from the person who dragged him there is the same way that's a very good way to say it. They're ghost agnostics. That's my new that's gonna be my new term. agnostic.

Ethan Healy: 23:58

Exactly. They love it. They will respond to that and they'll go Yeah, that's exactly what I am. And this is a real obsession, especially in this day and age people are obsessed with witchcraft and, and ghosts and you know, all these things. And it's really interesting hearing these people talk so passionately about it.

Anne Marie Cannon: 24:18

Yeah, I feel like some people believe anything. And I always say that I don't just, I don't swallow everything Hall.

Ethan Healy: 24:26

Well, yeah, that too.

Anne Marie Cannon: 24:28

So what else about Mary and her seances and maybe talk a little bit more about Abraham Lincoln and when he died, and you said that she grieved that death differently than she did her son.

Ethan Healy: 24:43

She really fell into a much deeper depression because at this point, she's not just dealing with the emotional impact herself, but the whole country's dealing with this emotional impact. So she is currently experiencing trauma. To cope with the fact that she has lost her husband, but people lost their president. And now, the tragedy and the depression sets in that it's a different kind of death. This is the first president to have been assassinated. People in the north especially are just completely distraught so much so that the Secretary of War Edwin Stanton is someone who protects Mary Lincoln after this. And she only sees her husband's casket I think, once or twice, Edwin Stanton takes her under her wing and says, we need to protect you because the public criticism and the public outcry could get really nasty. So she was never at any public appearances or anything like that. Everything was always done in private. And because of this death of her husband, she escaped out of public life forever, until her death. After this, she starts getting into spiritual ism, even more than she did during Willie Lincoln's death, because there's this period between 1863 to 1865, when Lincoln dies, that she takes a break from it. For whatever reason, I'm not too sure the reason but she takes a break from from spiritualism and the seances. We could speculate that it's just, you know, life happened. And she moved on a little bit and started hosting parties again, or whatever Mary Lincoln does, but after Abraham Lincoln died, she gets back into it pretty heavy. And she starts really trying to understand the death of her husband, why this had to happen to her. Why this had to happen to him, especially Abraham Lincoln dying on Good Friday is always very significant for the religious people. Because after this, Abraham Lincoln is seen as an angel there are there are a ton of historical depictions of Abraham Lincoln seen going up to heaven, and George Washington, open arms, all that stuff. And Abraham Lincoln is seen as an angel after this mostly by people in the north, not the South. But yeah, Abraham Lincoln's this, there's this view of Lincoln as this, this angel, this martyr, and I personally can't imagine what that must do for a wife, someone who they were very close to, especially because they had plans to go on vacation after Abraham Lincoln gained a second term, and they had these plans to go on vacation and do things together and reconnect, because there was a major disconnect between 1861 and 1865. Because there's a war going on. Lincoln doesn't have time to spend with his wife, so to speak. I mean, that's sad to say, but it's the truth. And really what starts happening is as things go on, she starts her oldest son, Robert Lincoln was probably the more well known of the sons. He's the only living child at this point, and He's the oldest and he's the only living child all of her sons have died except Robert. And Robert starts. He considers her seances and her spiritual ism as he he Radek behavior is what he calls it. Any institutionalizes her, especially because she was talking about suicide, and she was talking about leaving the earth and, and all these really heavy, heavy things, because she didn't think she had much to live for, especially because not only did her husband die, but all of her children have died, except Robert. So Robert institutionalizes her and eventually she she does get out. And she goes to live with her sister for the rest of of her days until she dies in the late 1800s from a stroke. She died in her 60s and why I say she reacted much differently than Willie is just because of the the mere circumstances and the complete distraught that she must have felt afterwards I I can't imagine.

Anne Marie Cannon: 29:29

Yeah, so much loss. A lot of loss. It does sound like maybe the spiritualism became an obsession. Maybe an unhealthy obsession obviously.

Ethan Healy: 29:42

Yeah, I would definitely say so. I think and this is the hard part. There's not much known about link a Mary Lincoln after the death of Abraham Lincoln because there's not much she you know, she doesn't write and diaries. She doesn't send much letters. She doesn't do much of any of that. So it's really a lot of it is, you know, just documents that historians can get from, you know, the mental hospital, she stayed out or or Robert Lincoln himself because thankfully he ended up living many years after that. So

Anne Marie Cannon: 30:18

interesting. I interviewed a woman, her ancestor, a woman named Elizabeth Dixon was depicted in, I can't remember the artists name that did the painting, but it's Lincoln's deathbed and she was one of the women who Mary Todd Lincoln had called to comfort her during the final hours of Lincoln's life. And I'm telling you this because I know that you're you are getting your PhD. I think there's a lot of information to be had out there if you dig in. So she, one of the things she did to verify the fact that she was actually there was, she went to a collection that one of her aunts had donated to one of the archives in Washington, there was a letter in there for Mary Lincoln that had gotten misfiled in the collection. And it's Mary Lincoln to Elizabeth Dixon. And she's saying that when they asked her if she wanted somebody to come there, she said, Oh, I want Elizabeth Dixon. And this is in her own words. So and this is pretty new information. But I do think that I think history is going to give us up secrets for years to come. And I think you're the kind of person that's going to, is going to find that misfiled letter or whatever it is. So I think, you know, it sounds like you dig and you go down the rabbit hole. And I admire that. I like rely on other people to do that. So then they can come back and tell me what they found.

Ethan Healy: 31:59

Yeah, now that's a good strategy. It's a very good strategy.

Anne Marie Cannon: 32:03

I see my guests do the heavy lifting. You know, I get to hear new stories.

Ethan Healy: 32:08

You're in the good seat.

Anne Marie Cannon: 32:10

Yeah, I like what I'm doing. So what else? Is there anything else about this that I haven't asked you? that you want to share?

Ethan Healy: 32:19

I would just say for your viewers that are listeners, I should say that. I think I don't know if you've ever seen the film Lincoln. Yes, directed by Steven Spielberg. Absolutely brilliant film. And I think Mary Lincoln that was that was portrayed by Sally Field, who was also brilliant, is probably the most accurate depiction we're ever going to get of Mary Lincoln. And if you ever rewatch that film, and I have I haven't really watched in quite a few years, so I should go back.

Anne Marie Cannon: 32:56

It's a long one. There was a lot of long films that year. I remember for the

Ethan Healy: 33:01

there was words, yeah, there was a very lot of good ones that was the same year is 12 years of slave I believe, which was also brilliant. Yeah, many, many good movies. And the reason why I mentioned this is because Sally fields did like a year and a half of research before that movie was done. And I guess she pleaded with with Steven Spielberg that she needs to play Mary Lincoln. And she of course did. And with someone like her, who, who never ages, but also someone like her who is really dedicated to her craft. It's very admirable. And it's a brilliant depiction of Mary Lincoln. It doesn't depict the spiritual ism, unfortunately, but it does depict the way she grieved the way she she lived the way she loved the way it also depicts what we were talking about earlier about her kind of speaking up and you know, saying things to senators and representatives and, you know, say saying her what she thought and how she wasn't afraid to say that. So just for your listeners thought of me might be very useful to you know, if they're more deeper interested in Mary Lincoln, go watch.

Anne Marie Cannon: 34:20

Yeah, that was a great film. I love that. I'll link out to information about the film as well as moving on, tell us about where we can find you. And what you're doing maybe what do you have an idea of what you're going to be studying for your PhD?

Ethan Healy: 34:36

So you can find me many places you can find me on Twitter. that's usually where I spend most of my time. Unfortunately, Twitter's a dirty place, but I love it nonetheless.

Anne Marie Cannon: 34:47

I've gotten my I'll tell you, I've gotten some of my best interviews from Twitter. I don't get it. I don't get it. Like how to use it as a marketing device. I don't think it is but as far as communicating with, with people with similar interests, I think it's great.

Ethan Healy: 35:02

Oh, definitely I have met so many wonderful historians and so many wonderful people just through Twitter. So I if I didn't have a Twitter account, I wouldn't be on this podcast. So I appreciate it. Yeah, I appreciate it. But you can find me many places. I have a website, Ethan Healey dot home dot blog, you can find me at my Twitter account, which is Ethan healing very easy. And also, what I'm doing right now, my bachelor's degree thesis is is not at all what is has no relation to Abraham Lincoln, but is more so on john adams and the second president, john adams, more so during retirement and how he viewed his legacy and the legacy he left behind. And trying to put that into perspective. So I'm currently working on that right now. My PhD, what I really want to study in my life is, I want to study early America, like I was saying a little bit earlier, the early republic, really from the period probably between to make it clean, we'll say 1765 to 1865, let's make it clean. So really, that hunt that 100 year period, that is just so fascinating to me politically, and there's still so much more to learn about early America. And there's still so much, especially in the day and age, we're talking about with brilliant things happening, like the 1619 project, and so much more diversity in the historical community being talked about anyway. And I do recognize that I'm a straight white male within the historical community talking about early America. But I do think there's a significance importance to the idea of, hopefully what I'll be able to offer and what I'm able to offer, you know, is my research and help and anything I can do, this is what I want to do as a career and what I want to do with my life, I'd love to teach. And so you're actually the very first time I've been on a podcast. So thanks for having Oh,

Anne Marie Cannon: 37:00

wow. So of course, I'll link out to your website to your blog, and your Twitter account. And maybe we could have you back on the show to talk about your PhD. No, no, not your PhD. That will be the third time you're on the show. But maybe we can have you on the show to talk about Adams and the research you.

Ethan Healy: 37:22

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. That'll be done in May. So come to me during the summer, and I'll be here.

Anne Marie Cannon: 37:28

I'll tap, I'll tap you on the shoulder. I'll make a note definitely. So is there anything else that you want to share about this history?

Ethan Healy: 37:39

I guess my final thing I would say is that we're not done with Mary Lincoln. The research on Mary Lincoln still needs to be had there are there are a few historians that are doing really good work on Mary Lincoln. And I believe there was a new book that just came out. The book is called an American marriage, the untold story of Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd, and it's by a very well known Lincoln scholar and historian, Michael Burlingame. And he's done brilliant work on Abraham Lincoln, including a two volume biography on Abraham Lincoln. So he knows this stuff pretty well, really just to say that there's so much more to learn about Mary Lincoln's so much more to learn about history. And I urge your listeners that if they're interested in this stuff that you know, just because it hasn't been written yet, doesn't mean there's not some stuff there. So

Anne Marie Cannon: 38:33

sure, yeah. So the woman that I interviewed was Caroline welling, Van dusen. And her ancestor will was Elizabeth Dixon. And that was an interesting episode, if you ever decide to listen to it, it's got some really interesting information in it. In contrast, going back to Mary Lincoln's kind of personality, and that she said, what she thought to whoever she wanted to say it to. In contrast, this woman, Elizabeth Dixon, she wrote, there's a lot of diaries. And so her descendant, Caroline is doing this research and she actually one of the diaries was published in, I want to say, the White House history magazine or something of that nature. She never really wrote about politics. You know, that information wasn't in there. And yet and this is another woman that I'm really fascinated with Elizabeth Dixon, because the first place that she goes to when she goes on her honeymoon, and travels to Europe is to the grave site of a famous and I can't think of her name female abolitionist. So even though she didn't write about politics, her it those little breadcrumbs say a lot to me. That was the first place that she went to and what her the No politics really were. But yeah, I think there's a lot of information for you, historians to reveal for us. lay people in the future.

Ethan Healy: 40:13

Thank you so much for having me. And you're doing some good work here with your podcasts. So continue the good work and I hope to be on again.

Anne Marie Cannon: 40:23

Oh, absolutely. I really enjoyed talking to you and learning more about marriage. There you have it, Ethan Haley, talking about Mary tab Lincoln, her seances and spiritual ism. I just want to remind you that there are several ways that you can support the show and all of the things I'm going to mention have a big impact. First of all, you can leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice and second, subscribe, like and follow us on social media including Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. also join in on the conversation by leaving comments. You can also buy us a cup of coffee through cofee or become a patron through Patreon. Thanks for listening. Have a great week.