Kevin Kuharic, A Clutter of Patchwork Squares: A Chronicle of Atlanta's Oakland Cemetery

In this episode of Armchair Historians, Anne Marie talks to Kevin Kuharic about his recently published book, A Clutter of Patchwork Squares: A Chronicle of Atlanta’s Oakland Cemetery.

For those of you who have been following us from the beginning, you may remember that my first episode was a three-part series in which Mr. Kuharic shared the history of famous hotelier and French chef of the Rockies, Louis Dupuy.

A Clutter of Patchwork Squares, which is rising quickly up the Amazon chart for 20th Century American History, is a groundbreaking historical account and reference. Kuharic has literally spent years researching and writing about one of the most popular and largest cemeteries in Atlanta Georgia, we are talking footnotes and everything.

Mr. Kuharic serves as executive director of Hotel de Paris Museum, a Site of the National Trust for Historic Preservation and member of Great American Treasures. He has appeared in documentaries, on public television series, and contributed to the books James Novelli: A Forgotten Sculptor, Building Metropolitan Atlanta: Past, Present & Future, Urban Green: Innovative Parks for Resurgent Cities, Atlanta's Oakland Cemetery: An Illustrated History and Guide, and Cultural Heritage Tourism: Five Steps for Success and Sustainability.  His historic preservation work at Oakland cemetery spanned three decades and was recognized by four mayors of the City of Atlanta.

A Clutter of Patchwork Squares: Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/Atlantamunicipalcemeteryhistory

On Amazon: https://amzn.to/3osCSwr

Hotel de Paris Museum: https://hoteldeparismuseum.org

Oakland Cemetery: https://oaklandcemetery.com

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Transcript

Anne Marie Cannon: 0:00

Hello, my name is Anne Marie cannon and I'm the host of armchair historians. What's your favorite history? Each episode begins with this one question. Our guests come from all walks of life, YouTube celebrities, comedians, historians, even neighbors from the small mountain community that I live in. There are people who love history and get really excited about a particular time, place or person from our distant or not so distant past. The jumping off point is the place where they became curious than entered the rabbit hole into discovery. Fueled by an unrelenting need to know more, we look at history through the filter of other people's eyes. I'm Chair historians is a Belgian rabid production. Stay up to date with us through Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Wherever you listen to your podcast that is where you'll find us. I'm Chair historians as an independent, commercial free podcast. If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad free, you can buy us a cup of coffee through coffee, or you can become a patron through Patreon links to both in the Episode Notes. Hello fellow armchair historians. In this episode, I talked to Kevin cuchara ik about his recently published book, a clutter of patchwork squares a chronicle of Atlanta's Oakland Cemetery. For those of you who have been following us from the beginning, you may remember that my first episode was a three part series in which Mr. Koh Herrick shared the history of famous hotelier and French chef of the Rockies Louis DePuy. A clutter of patchwork squares which is rising quickly up the Amazon chart for 20th century American history is a groundbreaking historical account and reference. Mr. Koh Herrick has literally spent years researching and writing about one of the most popular and largest cemeteries in Atlanta, Georgia. We are talking footnotes and everything. Kevin cuchara, welcome. And thank you for being here today.

Kevin Kuharic: 2:06

Thanks, Anne Marie cannon,

Anne Marie Cannon: 2:09

I love that you saved my last name with my first name. Anyways, we're just going to get right off into the races. And I'm going to ask you, what's your favorite history that we're going to be talking about today,

Kevin Kuharic: 2:23

we're going to talk about a municipal cemetery in the southeast, located in the city of Atlanta called Oakland,

Anne Marie Cannon: 2:31

Oakland Cemetery. Why this history,

Kevin Kuharic: 2:35

I started volunteering at Oakland back in 1989. And even though people knew some things about the site, a proper history had never been written a seminal work had never been written about the site. Many people talked about it, that it needed to happen at some point. And nobody did it. And so at some point, I decided that I would try. And so in 2000, I started pulling together what I knew about the site, including some of the people buried there, some of the manufacturers of the monuments, and other ornaments, and started to create a chronicle of the place.

Anne Marie Cannon: 3:21

So I've listened to some of the book, I've read some of the book, I've downloaded the book, what is the name of the book,

Kevin Kuharic: 3:30

a clutter of patchwork squares, a chronicle of Atlanta's Oakland Cemetery.

Anne Marie Cannon: 3:38

Now, what was your approach in writing this book? What angle did you want to disseminate information from?

Kevin Kuharic: 3:50

I have found that most cemetery books focus on the famous people buried there. It's more of a collection of biographies, if you will, and really not about the site. But I consider myself a sites person. I'm a historic preservationist, professionally. So I was more interested in why the site was the way it is. How did it get built? Why was it built that way? Why does it look the way it does? Why is it located where it is? And so I approached it differently. So I minimize biographical information and only use it if it helps explain the story behind a monument or a section or some sort of landscape feature at the site. So that is a distinct difference between my book and other cemetery book.

Anne Marie Cannon: 4:43

Well, and I know one of the things that you take on is some of the racial issues and I think you approach that part of it, whereas other works probably don't look at the whole cemetery holistically in the different parts of it. So can you talk a little bit about that talk about the African American history in that cemetery. And, you know, maybe highlight some of the interesting points about that?

Kevin Kuharic: 5:10

Well, I was very lucky to have a long and successful career in Atlanta, which is really the, the cradle of civil rights. And it made a huge impression on me, just living in that area working in that area. And then the site in particular Oakland, where I worked for 21 years in many different capacities. I was aware of racial tension, religious tension, and socio economic tension. So from the outside, a casual visitor would think that a cemetery would be the last place where you would encounter conflict. But I found that Oakland was and is full of conflict, a lot of it racially based might surprise you that the site was segregated until the 1970s. And so in my lifetime, it was segregated. And it was desegregated with the passage of something called the Oakland Cemetery bill, which allowed for the city of Atlanta to reclaim unused burial space within Oakland. And there was a list of criteria. And it was, it would include things like there hadn't been a burial on the lot for 75 or more years, there was no known contact either a descendant or an authorized agent. And if no one came forward during this process, which took about a year of review in the courts, then the ownership would revert back to the city of Atlanta. And the city could then auction off in a silent bid process, these burial spaces discriminate, and this will be done on the court courthouse steps. And it had no eye to race, religion or economic status, you would just submit a bid in a sealed envelope and the highest bid one. And that's what ended segregation at Oakland Cemetery. It became a model for other municipalities that run city cemeteries. The city of Atlanta, and so its expenses are paid for through taxes. And so it's a sort of a hybrid cemetery. It's a municipal cemetery. But within it, there are different burial sections. And within those burial sections, there is privately owned property. So the city in order to raise money to establish the cemetery, bought six acres of land from a farmer, Alfred Wooding, it was likely a tobacco farm. His wife, Harriet was already buried on the land. And so it was in a good location outside the city limits, it was on high dry ground, but still accessible to the population. So the city of Atlanta bought it. In 1850. They opened it as city cemetery. And later it was named Oakland, after all the oak trees planted there and in the area, but it's in order to raise money to put in roadways and other improvements. The city surveyed the six acres, divided it into public areas and private areas, and sold burial lots and then that revenue helped to do things like install walkways, and driveways and roadways.

Anne Marie Cannon: 8:55

So then, people paid for their lats, their plots, what do they call them? plots? Right?

Kevin Kuharic: 9:04

It's a lot and then a space and now, but not everybody could oh, let's do that. So this is this is a service of municipalities. They also bury the indigent, and at times, strangers, travelers going through Atlanta, who may have died from disease or were accidentally killed and would be buried at the city's expense. So that is a function of municipalities to this day, is to bury the indigent, but at Oakland it was the indigent and strangers.

Anne Marie Cannon: 9:44

City still generate revenue from private owners.

Kevin Kuharic: 9:50

No, okay. The cemetery grounds are finite, in fact, for the style of cemetery that it became it's it's falls into a category of the rural garden cemetery movement, which is based on an English design. And the first one was Mount Auburn cemetery here in the United States, and that's in Boston. But Oakland again is a hybrid part of it is more like a churchyard. Another part of it is municipal, done on a grid. And then other parts are very winding roads that go around landscape features like hills and valleys. So that the cemetery is is finite when it comes to its real estates. 48 acres, which is small for the style of cemetery it is. And so the land was divided and designed, and by the late 19th century sold out. So there has been no significant revenue since the late 19th century. So what that means is the burden of upkeep, maintenance and improvements is on taxpayers within the city of Atlanta.

Anne Marie Cannon: 11:09

So they're not, there aren't any available spaces are there are occasionally

Kevin Kuharic: 11:15

only if there are two ways to get into Oakland. And that still can happen. In fact, the most recent famous burial at Oakland was the singer Kenny Rogers. That's right. It's very there this year. And so it is an active cemetery even though it's sold out. So the question is, how does that happen? In the case of Kenny Rogers, it was a private sale, there was a family that inherited space at Oakland. And there was a private transaction between that family and Kenny Rogers family or estate. So that's how that came to pass. But still, when a burial space hits that 75 year mark, the city of Atlanta can instigate a process through the Oakland Cemetery bill and reclaim that space. So there is still space there. But I will tell you that the cemetery is over buried. It has within 48 acres, 30,000 monuments and 100,000 burials, that the the average burial per acre is 1000 people. So, right, you're doing the math. So if it's 48 acres, it should be full at 48,000 people. It has 100,000 burials, and it's still active.

Anne Marie Cannon: 12:46

Wow. So why did Kenny Rogers this estate, pick Oakland?

Kevin Kuharic: 12:52

I don't know the family and I don't know who runs the estate. His burial happened after my departure from Oakland. I left Oakland in 2010. So I really I don't know any specifics. I can speculate. I know he was living in metropolitan Atlanta. He was living in Sandy Springs when he died. And I do know that Oakland has a mystique. It has a cachet. There are other famous people buried there. And even though it is an active cemetery serving its community still, it is also a historical site and an attraction and people visit it. It's a place that has not been forgotten. And so it has, again, just like in the early days, great access to this to downtown Atlanta. So I would say that it would be easy for his fan base to find him at Oakland Cemetery. The other famous burials, Bobby Jones, known as the world's greatest golfer, he won the Grand Slam of golf, and also the author of Gone With the Wind Margaret Mitchell, along with dozens of Atlanta, mayor's luminaries in criminals. And the nameless, everybody's there. And that's what I really like about municipal cemeteries, I have to say, of all the different types of cemeteries there are I like municipal the best, because it involves all citizens, no matter what their economic level, their beliefs, their achievements, their sins. Everybody's there. It's the great equalizer.

Anne Marie Cannon: 14:39

So what is tell us one of the stories about the African American section and I know you you talk about a lot of different events and circumstances, but could you pick one and just share it with my audience?

Kevin Kuharic: 14:57

There, there are a couple of stories It really stuck with me. There's one where an African American man, and this is going going to be late 19th century, an African American man who did not have the means to pay the city of Atlanta for the opening and closing of a grave. And that's another way that the city would instill does create revenue, there's a cost for digging the grave, closing grave. And so of course, in the 19th century, African Americans did not have the opportunities to amass wealth. Not all of them some did in Atlanta, but many did not. And so the expensive burial fee would be something that would be an obstacle. So this man came into Oakland that night, and he had a deceased baby with him. It was not his baby. It was a neighbor's if I remember the story correctly, and he knew that he might encounter the nightwatchman and of course the nightwatchman position of authority, and also a white man. And so what the African American man did was he put the deceased baby in a basket, covered it with a cloth snuck into the cemetery. And lo and behold, encountered the nightwatchman, who asked what was in the basket. And to try to throw him off. He said it was a roast beef, and that he was just cutting through the cemetery. And so this really indicates to me some of the struggles, economically, racially, that have happened at Oakland. And why there needs to be an indigent sex section. Another story that I have about the African American grounds was how that section was preyed upon in the 1870s by Body Snatchers, or resurrection men is what they were called, by Emory University, very fine University in Atlanta, had a medical school and they needed cadavers. And so they would hire people or even send students to places like Oakland, including Oakland. And because of the lack of a voice in the African American community, there was a lack of protection, a lack of concern. And they would often be preyed upon. And there was a grave that was opened, and a body stolen. Eventually, laws changed, which allowed medical schools to legally and more easily access cadavers. And that's what ended grave robbing the grave robbing did happen at Oakland.

Anne Marie Cannon: 18:20

Where did you hear that story about the gentleman with the baby in the basket?

Kevin Kuharic: 18:28

Well, my book is a history. And so it's based on newspaper accounts, and books. There are some oral histories in there, but I do try to limit that, because I want to stick to the facts. I tried to write the book in a scholarly way. And it does contain footnotes. So I do name my sources. And that way people understand when things happened, what the time period was, like the context, and maybe where they can find more information regarding those subjects.

Anne Marie Cannon: 19:08

There's a lot of information in this book.

Kevin Kuharic: 19:12

It ended up being 500 pages. And I don't know if that's a help or hindrance when it comes to promote, I

Anne Marie Cannon: 19:20

think the type of book that it is, it's it's a help because it's it's a reference. It is a reference book. I imagine people, you know, maybe somebody will buy the book, specifically for particular history. I don't know. I just I think it's it's a history book. It's scholarly. It has footnotes, and you did, how long did it take you to write the book?

Kevin Kuharic: 19:43

I started it in 2000. And of course, I had been researching prior to beginning to write it. So I had amassed a working knowledge of the site. I had articles and clippings already in my possession. And so the way I break it down is it was research for 21 years that 21 years, I was involved with a site written for 10. So I started writing it in 2000, and stopped writing it in 2010, when I left the cemetery and moved out of state to take a different position. And then I put it away for the last 11 years. And just got to the point in my life where I felt it was time to release it. And so I released it in a digital form. It's available on Amazon. And I was pleased and surprised to find out that presently, it is included in a list of 100 new titles on Amazon dealing with 20th century history.

Anne Marie Cannon: 21:02

That's exciting. Congratulations.

Kevin Kuharic: 21:05

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Anne Marie Cannon: 21:07

It's a lot of work that you put into the book, there's no

Kevin Kuharic: 21:11

way to put a value on my time, or on the content of the book, and what you said a moment ago about it being a resource that was really the intent. So I appreciate you picking up on that. It is not a historical fiction, you might find pleasure reading this book, there are some really beautiful stories in it. There's a lot of tension in it. There's a lot of uncomfortable moments in the book. It was really to sort of help set the record straight. There were many misconceptions about how the site evolved, or how it was used, or who used it, why. And so I hope to straighten out the truth presented in a factual way. And then if a question comes up in the future, that might deal with the restoration of a monument or the restoration of a landscape or a section, or even the introduction of something new, like a monument for an unmarked person. I'm hoping that this book will help guide those decisions so that people can get it right.

Anne Marie Cannon: 22:27

When you said that you want to help to with regard to future decisions to help people to get it right. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure.

Kevin Kuharic: 22:41

So in one of the various sections, called jus flat, there were walkways, brick walkways through the section, so on sort of a grid, north south east west grid, and because of the demand for burial space, the sexton for the congregation that was being buried in that section, the only way to introduce or create more burial spaces was to remove some of the walkways and bury people in the former walkways. And so that came to pass. And again, that goes back to when you have a property, it is finite, it has boundaries, and it is what it is and it will fill up. And so that was a creative way for that congregation to answer the demand for burial space and their section. And I revealed that to some tour guides, volunteer tour guides at the cemetery, and they felt that was incorrect. And so I wanted to demonstrate to them through things like footnotes. What exactly happened because I went to the Bremen Museum, which is a Jewish Museum and Archives in Atlanta, I went there was able to access records and that helped to get the information the facts, showing that the walkways were methodically systematically and purposefully removed in order to create burial space. Now, it wasn't just to correct that story with these individuals who felt that wasn't the case. I also was looking at it from a practical standpoint about burial need in the future for Oakland. And so to me if that was a historic practice within this historic site, but also active living site today, perhaps it should be considered for the future the removal of walkways, driveways and roadways. In order to create more burial space, and if you could look back at a historic precedent, then perhaps that would make that possible. And so that that's sort of the two reasons why I wanted to just put that misconception to rest. And that's just one of many in the site.

Anne Marie Cannon: 25:20

What I like about the book is that you do present these compelling narratives like about the gentleman who had the basket with the baby in it. They're, they're compelling stories, like you said, they're interesting. And yet, they're based on fact, they're based on read, you know, it's a retelling of a story that appeared somewhere. And I think that's what makes this book so important and fascinating. They worked

Kevin Kuharic: 25:54

very hard to make the book inclusive, because of the nature of municipal cemeteries, representing all aspects of the citizens of Atlanta. And so, I tried to, in some ways, dig a little harder. When it came to dealing with the unknowns. There are many, many unknown people buried at Oakland. And sometimes they're given a name in the records just to fill in that line. Sometimes it's just a physical description of that person, and they're not given a name. So there are many nameless, there are people buried in the site under the name stranger, and their monument says stranger. There's one young man, Andy from South Carolina. There's another person worker at Kimball house. There's a little kid fed wellchild. There's a flower corner, there's an orange cane. And there are numerous George Washington's. And so this is what the sexton or sextons decided to do in order to fill out that paperwork, either describe the person's physical characteristics or where they worked, where they were found, what they did for a living, or just sometimes a humorous name, because they had nothing to work with.

Anne Marie Cannon: 27:40

So fed well, child would be a child that might have been

Kevin Kuharic: 27:44

plump. Yes, I believe so. Right? It's heartbreaking really. But another reason just to backtrack, just a little bit about misunderstandings of the site that could impact it negatively. And remember, it's it's not just an active cemetery, and a historic site, but it's also a an archaeological site. And prior to the cemetery being there, it was native land, and Amerindians occupied that land. So, there are many, many layers of history there. But at some point in the early 20th century, the belief that the potter's field where the Inogen are buried, there became a belief that that area was not ever used. And the reason that misconception happened was typical the potter's field, the indigent their families didn't have money to commemorate with memorials, anything lasting like a marble upright monument, or a brick mausoleum. They couldn't afford it. So over the years, overgrowth and clearing overgrowth and clearing, erasing the outlines of the graves, just three erosion and neglect. People started to think that that acreage was unoccupied and could be plotted and sold. And so, there was an excavation conducted by Georgia State University and they came in and determined that the section was completely full. And so, this is why putting on record With sources is so important, because it might be common knowledge today that potter's field is full. But will that perception or understanding be the same 2030 5070 years from now. But if it's in a document like this manuscript of mine, perhaps that will help protect not only that section, but the people buried there, who should remain undisturbed?

Anne Marie Cannon: 30:34

Yes, I agree.

Kevin Kuharic: 30:37

It would be impossible to tell the history of Oakland without discussing race. I laughingly have told friends and confidants, I'll know that the book is truly successful when I get my first death threat. And I say that, because I do not shy away from the discussion of race. And there's no way to honestly, write a history about Oakland, and many things in Atlanta, without discussing race. And so I named names. There have been some horrible things that have happened out there when it comes to discrimination. I know that the Ku Klux Klan used to meet at Oakland, I have a photo of it from the 1930s. And it's really, it was a way to establish a foothold on that property, and also intimidate others. And so not only do I have photographic proof, but there are period accounts out of newspapers, I do name names. In is just facts, and is reporting the facts that were reported. And so it's just history. I thought of myself as a conduit for the story of the site. Although there is some artistry in it, when it comes to how you balance things. But I did try to balance things. I do use the N word, one time in the book, but it is from a quote, a historical quote. And I didn't want to let that person off the hook. And so I quote it word for word, letter for letter and let it exist as it was intended by this person. I also use the word Jew, which some people believe to be a slur. But it turns out that it's not. The word has been weaponized by people who are anti semitic. But historically, sections in Oakland, named Jew Hill and Jew flat, I decided to retain those historical names and talk about the Jews of Atlanta. And it's not derogatory. It's it's factual. And Jew is a noun in Jewish is an adjective. And so in some situations, some sentence structures, some discussions, Jewish just didn't even fit was inaccurate. And I prided myself on truth telling in this. Yeah. And some of it is very uplifting and other things are completely heartbreaking. And so I tried not to interpret those things, but just present them as facts and let the reader take from it what they will, a couple that are popping into my mind, and I'll just go with those. There are some representations like busts and statues that represent the dearly departed, and they're elevated to iconic status. These people were so loved, that they were represented as represented in stone. And I think that is quite beautiful. There are wonderful symbols sprinkled throughout the cemetery things like carved roses of course, Rose means love. Have an upright torch, which means immortality. They're excerpts of poems and in, you know, quotes by Tennyson. And so I find all of those things very empowering culturally. And this goes back to ancestor worship a little bit that these people are being elevated to, really a status of permanence once their likeness is represented in bronze, or in stone or stained glass even. And so just that commitment, and that love and that sacrifice to commemorate these people, I think is really astounding. I also, you know, I bring the story up to the early 21st century, I really ended the story around the time of the death of former mayor Maynard Jackson, Maynard Jackson signed into law and 1976, that Oakland would be the city of Atlanta's official Bicentennial project. And I really credit him for seeing the value of that site. as flawed as it is, with all of its inherent racism. Ai, he was able to see beyond that, and see the value as a whole and made it the official Bicentennial project. And I think that's why it continues to be repaired and improved to this day. That awareness, that momentum, I think he is not credited enough, and sometimes not at all, without official apt. But truly, he's the one who brought the place the recognition, it needed the awareness needed to begin saving the site. And he ended up being buried there. In fact, I was involved with his burial, I was in a new role at the cemetery, with more responsibility than I had ever had. And unfortunately, Maynard died unexpectedly from a heart attack. And so very quickly, we work to clean up the grounds and prepare his grave with virtually no notice, I think we had, it was either 48 or 72 hours to prepare for this event, which was World News. We had helicopters flying overhead. There were guests at the funeral that included Jesse Jackson and Bill Clinton, bomb sniffing dogs clearing the grounds, it was quite something. Wow. Yeah. And that's sort of where I, where I end the book. And I ended it there because of an occurrence that happened shortly thereafter. And that was the Atlanta tornado of 2008. I don't go as far as that in the book, because I feel that that is a separate subject that should be addressed in its own book, the repair and recovery of the site after a natural disaster. So that's why I ended with Maynard Jackson.

Anne Marie Cannon: 38:50

Okay. That makes sense. Where do we see this history in pop culture?

Kevin Kuharic: 38:59

Oh, I'll tell you. Oakland is such a photogenic and picturesque spot. It's often in demand for films and videos. And so it does have a place in pop culture. When I was there. I saw I saw Burt Reynolds film there. He filmed there a couple of times. He filmed there in the 70s sharpies machine. It didn't make the final cut of the movie, but he did film there. And then he came back in the early 2000s To do a movie called Broken bridges. I know Disney has done some work there. I know. The Indigo Girls did an album cover there. And as I mentioned earlier in the interview, Kenny Rogers just got buried there. And of course, Margaret Mitchell, although that's 20th century history, now we're into 21st century history. There's still things that happen there. And I think will continue to and I just think that the allure of the mystery Arius will never go away. It is an unbelievable sight. I think that my book gives some structure and understanding. But the place is full of secrets. And that's why I was there for so long, is because it is unknowable. It always kept my interest, there was always something new to know. And questions being raised.

Anne Marie Cannon: 40:27

So where can we find you? Where can we find the book? What are you doing now? What's your next project,

Kevin Kuharic: 40:35

so you can access some behind the scenes stories and tidbits and trivia on a Facebook page, named after the book. So it's called a clutter of patchwork squares. And that is just a reference to all of the burial lots scattered throughout the 48 acres of Oakland. I also have some recordings of some excerpts on SoundCloud. So you can find out either through my name, Kevin KU Horik, or the title, a clutter of patchwork squares. You can purchase the book on Amazon, I kept the price low, so that researchers and institutions that might want to add it to their collection could afford it. So it's $10 right now, on Amazon, you can view it on Kindle or other devices. And my next project is going to be a another historical work, but it's going to be a historical novel. And I'm going to be more creative. This time. We're going to take artistic license this time. And I'm hoping to write about Louis DePuy at the hotel to Paris, and that is the site that I'm presently affiliated with, who is Louis depuis, he was the best cook in the Colorado territory. And known as the mysterious Frenchman, he had a very checkered past that comes out after he dies. And we are lucky enough to have received in present day, the world that He created in the form of a hotel, first class, French restaurant and high end lodge that sits in Georgetown, Colorado. And it's virtually intact, it serves as a museum today. And so people can come through and see where history happened. And it's virtually intact. 90% of the original furnishings are in place. And there's some incredible stories. But instead of doing a scholarly work, like I did with the Oakland story, I decided to do a historical fiction, a novel, which gives me some flexibility to test some theories. So back to his nickname, The mysterious Frenchman. Again, we'll never know everything. But I have some theories about why things are the way they are. And so I want to test those theories. And a story in a narrative told from a female point of view. And the story is going to start in 1959. And then bounce back and forth and time is going to tell the story of the Burkholder family who ran the hotel in the 20th century. And then about Louie depuis the founder of the hotel, the 19th century.

Anne Marie Cannon: 43:51

waiting with bated breath, I do want to remind my listeners that my first two interviews my first two episodes were about Louis DePuy, I was interviewing you as the executive director of the Hotel de Paris museum. So if you haven't done so already, listeners, I recommend you go back fascinating history about Louis depuis So, just wanted to put that in there. And what it what do you want my listeners to be left with? What is the one thing you want my listeners to know about this history that you talked about today?

Kevin Kuharic: 44:32

Well, I'll tell you something. I want them to know about themselves, if I could start with that. Okay, I really feel that most everyone can be a writer. And the difference between a writer and a non writer is discipline. I need a lot of people They have a lot of interesting stories. They don't see themselves as writers. And the stories don't get recorded. And so I feel like I'm a great example of somebody who leaned on discipline in order to create a work that I felt needed to exist in the world. So I just encourage people, if they have a story, whether it's a personal story, or they know something about a place or a person, to record it, to write it down in some way, shape, or form, and save, save that history that can be so easily lost to time. That's it.

Anne Marie Cannon: 45:53

That reminds me of when you were telling me about the woman that you ran into when you were doing research for this book. What did she say to you? Yeah, I story.

Kevin Kuharic: 46:05

I really wish I really wish I would have gotten her name and her contact information and kept in contact with her over the years. So I was in the archives of the Bremen Museum in Atlanta. And it's a basement archives. Nice and bright, though nothing scary and dusty about it was really lovely, and very unpopulated. And so there was an archivist running the division resection, and two patrons, me and a young woman. And we were both very deep and thought very deep in our projects, pulling materials, taking notes. And she approached me, and she ended up telling me that she was a student at Spelman College, which is one of the historical black colleges and universities. And she asked me what I was working on. And I told her about Oakland. And I asked about her project, it was a class project, and she was just fulfilling her requirements. And just out of nowhere, she made an observation that has stuck with me and got me really through to the end, in the end to be releasing the book to the public, which has come to pass. And she said, and this was unprompted. Do you know why? You deserve to write this book, her words? And I said, no, why? And she looked around the room. And again, it was just the two of us. And she said, Because you're here. And I have reflected back on that story countless times. I have told it countless times. And maybe she'll see it, maybe maybe she'll see it or hear it with this podcast. And no, that was her. But I'll tell you, she gave me strength. She gave me something to refer back on that was so positive. I've leaned on it many, many times. So I think

Anne Marie Cannon: 48:31

I have to ever since you've told me that. You've told me you told me that a long time ago. And you know, when I think about certain projects that I'm thinking about pursuing ones that I'm working on once ones that are like your book that I wrote years ago that I haven't put out into the universe yet. It that comment that she made to you is helped me

Kevin Kuharic: 48:54

it's fantastic. I hope I hope she knows that. I you know, and it just goes to show you one one kind word. And maybe she doesn't even remember saying it. Who knows. I hope she does. I I'd love to thank her for it because it's made a huge difference. And, you know, sadly, I've been told the opposite about this project. I was told I didn't deserve to write it. I was told I was not worthy of writing it. I was told I shouldn't write it. But I felt that the project was bigger than that. And if not me, yeah. Exactly. And so I do read done. It's out there. And I hope that it makes some positive impacts not only for the site and its future, but I hope that I hope it enhances people's understanding and their enjoyment of the site, their appreciation of the site, because it is splendid to say the least,

Anne Marie Cannon: 49:57

write it down. like it. I'd like to go there someday. I really enjoyed talking to you today. Kevin, thank you so much for being here.

Kevin Kuharic: 50:09

Thank you for the opportunity. And

Anne Marie Cannon: 50:14

there you have it, a clutter of patchwork squares. To find out more about Kevin cuchara in the book, be sure to check out our episode notes. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week.