Armchair Historians

Mike Lawlor Talks Gun Legislation on Anniversary of Sandy Hook Shooting

December 14, 2021 Mike Lawlor
Armchair Historians
Mike Lawlor Talks Gun Legislation on Anniversary of Sandy Hook Shooting
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Show Notes Transcript

Anne Marie talks to  American politician, criminal justice professor and author of the first red flag gun law in the nation, Mike Lawlor about the Sandy Hook Shooting and the history of gun legislation.

Trigger warning. We talk about gun violence and mass shootings in this episode.

This episode is being released on the 9-year anniversary of the Sandy Hook shooting.

Resources:

Mike Lawlor
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lawlor
University of New Haven: https://www.newhaven.edu/faculty-staff-profiles/michael-lawlor.php
Twitter: @MikeLawlor
Article in New Haven Register: https://bit.ly/3EPp98V
Face the State: WFSB 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tneu60D0X4Q
CT Gun Law: What goes into effect and when: WTNH News8: https://youtu.be/IXt1ErxGavY

Sandy Hook Shooting
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting

Flashpoint Interview: Mother of Sandy Hook victim talks path forward after school shootings: https://bit.ly/3oOqszb

Take Action:
Sandy Hook Promise: https://www.sandyhookpromise.org
Background Checks: https://bit.ly/3GBzky9
Sandy Hook Promise Learning Center: https://bit.ly/3GIWtPz
Volunteer: https://bit.ly/3oWyINX

Serving Coffee to Mourners: https://bit.ly/3rUuUyu

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Anne Marie Cannon:

Hello, my name is Anne Marie cannon and I'm the host of armchair historians. What's your favorite history? Each episode begins with this one question. Our guests come from all walks of life. YouTube celebrities, comedians, historians, even neighbors from the small mountain community that I live in. There are people who love history and get really excited about a particular time, place, or person from our distant or not so distant past. The jumping off point is the place where they became curious, then entered the rabbit hole into discovery. Fueled by an unrelenting need to know more, we look at history through the filter of other people's eyes. I'm Chair historians is a Belgian rabid production. Stay up to date with us through Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Wherever you listen to your podcast that is where you'll find us. I'm Chair historians as an independent, commercial free podcast. If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad free, you can buy us a cup of coffee through coffee, or you can become a patron through Patreon links to both in the Episode Notes. Hello, fellow armchair historians, some of you may have heard me talk about my home in the rocky mountains of Colorado. However, prior to moving here in 2013, I lived in Newtown, Connecticut for almost two decades. Of all the places I've lived. Newtown was the first to feel like home. I remember driving through the classic pastorale New England landscape dotted with colonial saltbox houses for the first time, I felt an immediate connection in my cells. It was a weird, almost longing. Several years later, the town that hosted roshambo and his troops as they marched across Connecticut, between Virginia and Providence, Rhode Island in 1781. In 1782, did in fact become my home. Flash forward to May 2001. When I was hired as a supervisor for an internationally recognized coffee company to work in their new town store. It was there that my connection to the town and its people was solidified. Over the next 11 years, I would build relationships with regulars that included school teachers, parents of elementary school children who would come to the coffee shop to wait for their kids to finish their First Communion classes at the Catholic church next door. Father Bob from that Catholic Church, several celebrities, local law enforcement and first responders, et cetera. On December 14 2012, at around 10am. As I was registering for my final semester of grad school, I overheard a woman behind the registrar desk saying there had been a shooting in New Town. I couldn't get out of there fast enough, but was frustrated to find that none of the local radio stations available in my car. We're carrying the story yet. So I called my then boyfriend and asked him to get on the computer and do a search, which he did and read a couple of breaking news stories about the horrifying chain of events that had just played out at Sandy Hook Elementary School. A school just half a mile from the coffee shop that I worked at. It would come out that the son of one of my regular and favorite customers had shot his way through a glass panel next to the locked front entrance doors at Sandy Hook Elementary School, armed with his mother's Bushmaster XM 15 e to s rifle, and 10 magazines with 30 rounds each after shooting his mother with a 22 caliber savage mark two rifle. Apparently guns were the only way my customer and her son were able to bond. The shooter had a familiarity and access to his mother's firearms and ammunition. He also had an obsession with mass murders, in particular, the April 1999 shooting at Columbine High School in Colorado. I felt a sense of urgency to get to work even though I wasn't scheduled for another few hours in a very visceral way. I needed to be there for my community and my staff. Over the course of the next few hours, I would come to serve parents of school aged children who gathered at the coffee shop until they could be reunited with their children. Because all of the local schools were in lockdown. Some of those parents would not be reunited with their children. Lauren Russo, who also worked for the same coffee company as me, would valiantly lose her life that day. During the shooting, Russo herded her first grade students into the restroom to hide from the shooter. The shooter found them in open fire, killing Russo and 15 of her students, only one of them survived. My daughter went to elementary school in Stratford, Connecticut, with Vicki Soto, who also valiantly lost her life trying to protect her students that day. Over the coming days and weeks, my staff and I would absorb the shock of a community, that would never be the same again. Perhaps the worst memories for me are of the funeral rushes. That is the out the door lines of customers attending the back to back funerals of grade schoolers conducted by Father Bob at St. Rose of Lima, the Catholic church next door. As you listen to this episode of armchair historians, I like you to think about what you are doing to bring about change for the future. Mike talks about incremental change, which seems more attainable than a complete overhaul right now. I too, will think about how I can take action in order to honor the precious lives taken on 1214 12. And how I can be part of the discussion and how I can educate myself to use my vote for policy makers that are working to end gun violence in our country. Mike Lawler, welcome and thank you for being here today.

Mike Lawlor:

Glad to be here. This is great. Yeah, I'm

Anne Marie Cannon:

excited. So we're just going to do what I always do and start at the beginning and talk about what's your favorite history that we're going to be talking about? And I almost didn't want to ask that question. Because favourite is probably not a really good description of you know, what we're going to be talking about. But let's just start there and see what happens.

Mike Lawlor:

I guess I have a lot of different types of favorite history. I've had a lot of different experiences in my life. But on point today, right, we're, since the topic of the shootings in Sandy Hook comes up, and we're at the anniversary of it actually right now. It's it's indelible, right? The memory of these events is indelible. And I think everyone who experienced it will never forget how they felt where they were, when they got the news, that type of thing. You know, interestingly, at the same time, you know, we have a young son with the time was about that age, and it's just such a scary thought. And we're actually seeing it playing out again. Now, in real time in Michigan. These are events that change people's lives. And it certainly had a big impact on mine.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Just a little self disclosure, we were talking before we started recording. I lived in New Town for 20. Some years, I live in Colorado now. But I was living in New Town and I was working at the you know, it's a famous national chain of coffee houses in Sandy Hook, just a half a mile from the school for 11 years. And so this topic is really personal for me. And I'm probably going to get emotional, because I really haven't talked about this in a long time. But I think it's time to start looking at where we are. COVID was actually a nice year off from school shootings. And here we are back again. So I wanted to do an episode about Sandy Hook that is not just you know, talking about how terrible it was and how horrible we feel. But I want to I want to be proactive and talk about some of the things that you've done, and where you're coming from and where you see us going as far as gun legislation goes. So maybe you could talk a little bit about your history with that.

Mike Lawlor:

So I grew up in East Haven, Connecticut, and I was a I'm a lawyer, so I was a prosecutor was my first job out of law school. And then I ran for the Connecticut legislature when I was 29 years old and got elected. And and I served there for 24 years. And most of that time, I was chairman of the Judiciary Committee where we have jurisdiction over everything from criminal laws down to bankruptcy laws and things like that. And so I've always believed that there are common sense gun control laws that respect people's second amendment rights, but at the same time, accomplish what I think is should be the main public policy goal in our country. And so I think the easiest way to explain that is to say that at the moment back then to but even more, so now. There are way more guns in circulation in this country than there are responsible gun owners. And I think the goal of public policy should be to narrow that gap. And so So how you do that is obviously complicated and very controversial. Connecticut, you know, along with some of the other northeastern states has really been an innovator when it comes to effective ways to enact responsible gun control legislation. So for example, it's always been the case in our state that if you want to carry around a handgun, you have to have a permit. In order to get that permit, you had to do a face to face meeting with your local police, you need to pass a background check, you need to go through some mandatory training. Then in the early 1990s, around the country, it seemed as though the gun manufacturers, by the way have their lobbying group is based in Newtown, Connecticut. The ironically, that it's clear a decision was made to try and manufacture and aggressively market, what they started to call modern sporting weapons, sporting rifles. And those are what we most of us refer to as assault weapons, they're based on a military weapon, they're modified, so they're not fully automatic. So they're not machine guns, it's not like you can pull the trigger, and it just keeps on firing. But these started to appear in the marketplace in the early 1990s. And relatively soon after that. They were being used in what we now call mass shootings, right, including school shootings. So in 1993, Connecticut was one of the first states to ban assault weapons. And in 1994, the United States Congress banned the manufacture and sale of new assault weapons, but they sort of grandfathered in the ones that were already in circulation, as did Connecticut. And so starting in 1994, there was a, there was a federal ban on the manufacture and sale of these types of weapons to civilians. But as a compromise, when that law got passed in Congress, the there was a sunset placed on it, meaning it would expire in 10 years unless it was renewed. And in 19, in 2004, you know, there was a new president, a new Congress. And needless to say, they did not renew that the federal assault weapon ban. And ever since that time ever since 2004, I think it's fair to say the gun manufacturers have really been extremely aggressive in marketing these weapons around the country. And at the moment that they're, they're widely available. They're banned in some states, but in a lot of states, they are not. In 2000. It turned out that the Connecticut ban, which did not grandfather in all the guns manufacturer before 2004, it turned out that the manufacturers are trying to get around that ban, or gun owners trying to get around the ban by slightly modifying the weapons that were available. So they didn't fall into the definition of what counted as an assault weapons. So Connecticut changed, expanded our definition for the state ban in 2000. And the reason I'm telling you this sequence of events is when the federal ban expires in 2004. And when the gun manufacturers started to manufacture their new weapons, they were clearly doing it in a way that it would get around some of the existing bans and states like Connecticut, New York and Massachusetts, where the ownership of these weapons was just banned altogether, and there was no sunset. So fast forward to 2012. The shooter in Sandy Hook his mother apparently thought it would be a good idea to buy a one of these modern sporting rifles for her son. According to the investigation that ensued. She felt that guns and shooting guns was the only way that he kind of seemed to get some satisfaction out of life. I mean, this kid was a shut in he was probably on the spectrum and, and was you know, living in the home and later found out in his bedroom, all the windows were blocked up, and he was obsessed with guns and mass shootings, and things like that. But so the, the weapons she was able to buy is this Bushmaster rifle. Which, if you looked at it, you'd say Well, that's an assault weapon, but it wasn't technically covered by the definition that Connecticut had in place at the time. So mom was legally able to buy the weapon and a gun store here in Connecticut. And, and that's the weapon that this guy used to kill All those schoolchildren and their teachers that day? Yeah. And so after that, you know, Connecticut enacted a very comprehensive set of gun laws, which I'm happy to go into in a minute. But I just want to say like, you see this throughout the evolution of gun control legislation, it's like, laws get passed, which are aimed at trying to shrink this gap between the number of guns in circulation, the number of responsible gun owners and the types of guns that are available. And, and each and every time the gun manufacturers try and get around, they try and find the loopholes in these laws to make available these types of extremely deadly weapons, which are clearly designed just in the case of these assault weapons. I mean, the whole point is to design a rifle that can kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible and as accurately as possible. I mean, that's what those that's why those guns were designed for the, for the military. And so there's many other laws that that were enacted here in Connecticut, but the point is, like each and every time, the gun manufacturers and the gun advocates, the so called Second Amendment, people seem to be viewing it as a sport to try and avoid these laws. And as a result, more and more laws are enacted, etc. So it's a little bit frustrating. But that's it. That's a short version of just the assault weapon story.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Yeah. So just some more information about me, I started working at the coffee chain that I referenced earlier, in 2001. And I met this woman who was a customer and at that point in my life, I was really trying to be a different person. I'm just gonna say that and so this woman comes in and she was a really difficult customer. And I thought to myself, Amery, you need to do something different, instead of just be, you know, have a crappy attitude. Anyways, long story short, I won that customer over. And that customer was Nancy was Adams mother. And I had an ongoing relationship with her for 11 years at the counter, because she would come in and talk to me. And so when I looked, you know, flash forward to 2012. And I do remember her coming in with him, and she would be standing at the counter, and he would be at the door. Very antsy, and she would always be really nervous. And so it was, I didn't know, I didn't know that she had an arsenal in her house. I didn't know that. That's how she she bonded with him until the news started coming out. And I saw her picture in the paper and the Saturday after the shooting. And my question, and the reason I'm talking about this is is I wonder, I know, you authored the Red Flag Law, which is a model for states since then, that was in 1999. And I wonder if that law, if you have somebody in the house like that, who has a mental health issues, would that law be in effect?

Mike Lawlor:

Yeah, well, I can tell you those three about the red flag laws, it's actually a separate, very interesting story. But to answer your question, had someone called the police and reported that they were concerned that this young man had the apparently access to a bunch of firearms, and was in the kinds of behavior he was involved with, there was misconduct at school, there was the, you know, homeschooling what his home life was, like, what his mother was, you know, decided to buy him one of these weapons that, you know, apparently she would go out for cocktails or something with some of the other ladies in New Town. And apparently, she would share some of her stories about how her son, you know, this was his only source of joy or satisfaction or whatever. I think if any of those not, I'm not blaming him, I'm just saying like, the answer your question had, they said, you know, something sounds wrong here. Maybe we should just alert the police. And had the police followed the process for the Red Flag Law, I bet you they would have been able to, to separate him from those weapons and refer him to some type of mental health evaluation. So I mean, that's what the law is designed to do. Right. And, and it's very frustrating. And, you know, Governor Malloy, who I was working for, at the time, as his criminal justice guy, he started the mantra, you know, that we started hearing, I guess, after the September 11, terrorist attacks, but in this respect, you know, if you see something, say something, right, and we saw this play out just the other day in Michigan, right, I mean, people were generally aware of a situation and I think people are wondering, What can I do? Should I say something and my interfere, you know, what about gun rights and all these things like Well, look, you've got to say something and then hopefully the police will follow up. I mean, that's not always the case. But the law provides an option for them to use. So, but I think this, this tragedy could have been prevented for sure.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Yeah. Interesting. Well, that's good to know. And I think that's it. I've been hearing that all week, for some reason, see something, say something. So do that people out there that are listening. And

Mike Lawlor:

and nothing's wrong. But you know, if you look at all these recent tragedies, the school shootings, the supermarket shootings, all this stuff, and almost every single case, there were red flags, right. And, and, and sometimes the people even went to the police. And depending on what state you're in, the police can legitimately say, Well, you know, really hit no one's broken any laws, there's nothing we can do. But well, that's not the case in Connecticut. And it's not the case in the thing, it's up to 18 or 19. States that have a red flag law now, but but, you know, it's, you know, I think common sense tells you that you should be able to do something, when you get good evidence, real indications that someone is a danger to themselves or to others, and they have access to firearms, you should at least be able to separate them from the firearms and refer them to a mental health evaluation. Yeah, so I've, obviously, I've been involved in this for a long time. And, and, as is the case with almost any issue these days, there's very, there's people with very strident opinions on both ends of the spectrum, right. I am, I believe in incremental ism, step by step. I'm good with that. But I also believe that it's extremely important to listen to what your opponents are actually saying, listen to their arguments. Sometimes they have a legitimate point, right. And and I think, in any public policy reform, if you're if the people who just philosophically disagree with their form, if they've got some valid criticisms, then it's perfectly okay to adjust your proposal to take into account whatever their criticisms happened to be. So like, for example, with the Red Flag Law, I mean, it's more than 20 years old. Now, he passed this in, in 1999. I think it was the first state to do it. And in the aftermath of a different tragedy, which I'm happy to describe, when we were debating it, some of the Second Amendment crowd, let's just refer to him as that. So you know, this sounds like a turning your neighbor law. And just because you don't like your net, you think well, okay, maybe it's certainly possible that that could happen. And so we made it very clear that the police would have to follow a very specific procedure, they would have to investigate the reports they get from whomever it is a health provider, which frequently turns out to be the doctors and mental health professionals that are calling the police for these red flag laws, or a family member or sometimes a neighbor, you have to make sure that what they're reporting to you is actually the case and then based on that, you have to write it down in an affidavit just like you would with a search warrant, or an arrest warrant, you have to get a judge to approve of it. And then the person is entitled to a hearing in a very, very short order, where evidence has to be provided in court. So I mean, these are all the due process protections that people were complaining about. And and I'm happy to say that at the end of the process, quite a few, let's, again, pro Second Amendment legislators voted for it, because they felt it it accommodated their concern. So I think it's very important to listen to what the critics are saying. The other thing I think it's important to acknowledge is that it is in fact, in the United States Constitution. It's there, it says what it says in the Second Amendment. And on top of that, in Connecticut, in our state constitution, it says, Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves in the state doesn't even make a mention of a well regulated militia or anything like that. And so in other words, it's in the Constitution. And we all take an oath to uphold what it says in the Constitution. And so I think you have to acknowledge that that, you know, none of these things I'm describing, involve prohibiting people from owning guns, right. You can put yourself in that category by getting convicted of a felony or something like that. But still, it's you have to acknowledge it because I think there are people who tend to be bordering on sort of the paranoid side we think this is all a big plot that confiscate everybody's guns, and it's not so I think, if you in your advocacy if you acknowledge that right, so look, I mean responsible, I would never own a gun. I think the decision to own a gun is a very dangerous decision to make Right, you are really putting in jeopardy your life, and those of your family members and friends just having a gun available. I mean, there's plenty of evidence to back that up. But some people want to do it, okay, I got it, but just you know, your ownership of that gun, you have that right to do it. But with that comes in extraordinary responsibility, just like driving a car like that like, and if something goes wrong, it's going to be your fault for not properly securing that firearm, etc. or carrying it around while you're drunk, for example, that type of thing. And, you know, the parents of the the shooter in Michigan are learning that the hard way. I mean, it's just announced that they're both indicted for manslaughter, because they permitted their kid to have that gun, and they knew what a risky was right. And so I mean, these are important lessons to have, it's like, you can have a gun. But just you know, there won't be any excuses if something goes wrong. And and to limit the types of guns that are available. I can Connecticut in the aftermath of Sandy Hook. You know, aside from adding more types of weapons to the ban assault weapon list, we also banned large capacity magazine. So if you can't sell magazines that hold more than 10 bullets anymore in Connecticut, and things like that, and, you know, for example, now we've expanded the the permit requirement to carry around a handgun. Now it applies to any gun, and you can't buy any gun privately or from a gun dealer in Connecticut without already having a permit. You can't buy ammunition in Connecticut without already having a permit. And that gives us the ability to sort of keep track of what's going on. But at the same time to do our best to make sure that people who are not responsible, have a hard time getting their hands on guns. Now, of course, when you say that people point out well, what about all these gangbangers in the city shooting each other? Yeah, that that's real, right. But a lot of the a lot of the a lot of the fatalities a lot of the gun fatalities in the country have nothing to do with gang bangers. You know, the number one category for firearm deaths is suicide. And so a lot of that are people that probably shouldn't be anywhere near a gun. But there they are. And a fair number of those are murder suicides, like the domestic stuff, so that those are not gang banger type scenarios. And, you know, the country is flooded with guns, and shouldn't be a surprise that we have all these side effects of that.

Anne Marie Cannon:

I was really ignorant. And I never really thought about gun law and gun control until Sandy Hook. And then I started having conversations, which were not really conversations because it was so you know, fresh and so personal and so hurtful that I would just become so enraged, and I couldn't, like you're saying, you know, listen to what the other I couldn't do that. I couldn't, I couldn't listen. Now it's been nine years, it's going on nine years. I'm hoping this episode will drop on the 14th. You know, I just I think it's time to look at it again, see what what I can do and see what other people can do. Is there anything else you wanted to say about the legislation before we actually talk about the experience of the event?

Mike Lawlor:

One thing I want to say and this is this is in the news of the moment, too, right? And that is this whole issue of self defense and firearms, right? The armar arbory case down in Georgia and the Rittenhouse case and Wisconsin, I mean, I think here, you're beginning to see people who apart from let's say, having weapons to defend themselves or to go hunting or something like that. I decided to take those weapons out and affirmatively put themselves in the middle of a situation and end up killing people and then claim self defense. So the self defense laws are very technical. And I really don't want to go into those right now. Could if you want to but but my point is, this is something this is like another side effect of the current complicated politics in our country. And that is people deciding to bring guns to a political argument and and or bring use their own personal guns to enforce the laws as they see them to be in their own neighborhood, right, that kind of thing. can easily get out of control. And I think what you're going to see, at least the discussion will begin about whether or not the the self defense laws in states and in the federal government need to be reconsidered in terms of could we add some language there that makes it clear that you can't claim self defense? If you go out of your way to inject yourself into a situation where you have no business being right. I'm not talking about a homeowner protecting their home or not they're going to business owner protecting his or her business We're talking about people who decide it's their responsibility to put themselves in the middle of this. And leaving aside the whole issue of doing it to advance a political point of view, right. On January 6, what we saw happen in Washington DC was obviously horrific. But just imagine if DC didn't have the strict gun laws that they have. And just imagine if it wasn't made clear to everybody that just do not bring guns into the District of Columbia that day. Right. picture in your mind that scene at the Michigan State Capitol where protesters were inside the Capitol with these assault weapons, waving them around? I mean, just imagine if that was the scene in DC that day, can you imagine how that would have gotten out of control? And so and how people would have gotten killed? Certainly, I mean, these are things that now we really have to think about. And there's probably reasonable ways to come up with public policies through legislation that that deal with those situations that were kind of unthinkable just 10 or 15 years ago.

Anne Marie Cannon:

How can we I don't know, pressures award, but how can we lean into our politicians to do better in this area? And to think about, you know, change, like you said, changing the language.

Mike Lawlor:

So, unfortunately, almost all of these kinds of significant changes are, the catalyst is some sort of tragic event. Right. And so now we've got the written house, and the armored arbory. Murder. I think the best way to get the conversation started is is to ask policymakers like legislators like what is the law that governs under what circumstances can you be intentional intentionally go to a riot with an assault weapon, which is what Rittenhouse did? Or what is the law about? If you see somebody suspicious in your neighborhood, chasing after them with a shotgun? What is the law on that? And could you claim self defense? You know, for example, going back to the Sandy Hook situation, if if you were following that trial in Georgia, you know, that was all about self defense. And the guy McMichael was the one who pulled the trigger. His basic argument was that, you know, he confronts Armand arbory. And McMichaels got a shotgun, and an Arby's not threatening them is trying to sort of back away and McMichael keeps on common. And arbory grabs the barrel of his shotgun. And McMichael claims, that that is what gave him a reasonable fear he's about to be killed. And that's why he shot him, right? So think about what happened at Sandy Hook. Right? The shooter drives to the school gets out of his car carrying an AR 15 walking towards the door. What if a teacher someone had seen that and ran up to him and grabbed the barrel? Would that guy have been justified in shooting him and claiming self defense? I mean, like, the police tell people, if you're in an active shooter situation, that you know, you should hide or RUN, HIDE or FIGHT in that order, right? And what does five mean? It means you're supposed to, you know, stop, you know, grab the gun or try. And if you doing that give someone the right to kill you. I mean, I don't think anybody thinks that's what that's supposed to mean. But that's the argument that the defendant in Georgia was making. Right. And, and so I think these are the kinds of things that have to be addressed in legislation. And I think like, by asking legislators, like, what is the law in this situation? What the law, what should the law be? And sometimes you have to give examples to people. So like, one question that occurs to me, like under, you know, given all the circumstances of the moment, what happens when a police officer pulls over a car that's got a driver and a passenger, and let's say the COP is white, and let's say the driver and the passenger are African American. And let's say the cop decides to pull out his firearm, and let's say the COP is being very sort of provocative with his language, etc, with the gunner. If the passenger shoots the police officer, and claims I didn't self defense, because I thought the officer was about to kill my friend, which is the test for self defense. If you reasonably believe that someone else is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury, you are justified in using deadly force. What about that scenario? I mean, you could see how these things get carried away. What if, you know Rittenhouse shot one to kill two people he shot three but he killed two one of the two people he killed also had a gun and that person had his gun out And Rittenhouse claimed I shot him because he had his gun out what if that guy shot Rittenhouse because Rittenhouse had a rifle was waving it around that guy would have been able to claim self defense. Right. So I mean, it's it's all of these things that were really unthinkable until recently that now it's a reality that has to be addressed. And I think just saying the legislators, have you considered what the law should be in these types of situations? I sometimes that's the way to get the discussion going.

Anne Marie Cannon:

All right. It's good information. You want to talk about the event of Sandy Hook and emotionally and how it provoked, you know, what it did to you and how maybe it changed the way that you looked at gun legislation, well,

Mike Lawlor:

didn't really change the way I looked at it. But so you know, I remember this day very clearly, Dan Malloy had gotten elected governor in 2010, in Connecticut, and he appointed me to be his criminal justice advisor, when his term began in January of 2011. And so he had been in office a little over a year, or a year and a half, I guess, almost two years. And, and so we had a lot of criminal justice reforms on our plate at the time. And I remember texting back and forth with a good friend of mine, who was the Governor's Council at the time, when the news was breaking that some kind of shooting happened at this Elementary School in Newtown. You know, obviously, he was with the governor. And in saying, It's really bad. It's really, really bad. I spent the whole day in my office in Hartford. But the governor went down to Sandy Hook. And I think his name was well known. He is the one who had to break the news to the parents who were all assembled in this gymnasium or cafeteria. And, and in his telling, in the governor's telling, he said that, you know, the state police, who were in charge of the investigation, this point, and this is just unfolding, and it happened maybe seven or eight hours earlier. And now all these families were distraught and didn't really know what actually happened to their children. The State Police policy is like, we're not going to say anything to parents until we confirm the identities of the children who are killed. And the governor said, I can't. I mean, this agony is too much, they have to just know, so the governor took it upon himself to go in and inform the parents that, you know, if you haven't been reunited with your child, then your child has died. And so governor, Malloy is sort of very least in a formal way, unemotional guy, right? And, and I've heard him tell the story, I just told you only a few times, but I mean, he, as I am right now, and I think anybody who thinks about this scene, you know, it's hard to not get emotional. And immediately, you know, in my role I was, I'm the policy guy. And, you know, immediately, it came to mind that, you know, that people are going to take different positions on this based on their philosophical views on guns, etc. And so, immediately, you know, we tried to figure out, you know, what exactly happened? Could it have been prevented? What, you know, were there warning signs? How did the kid get the weapons, you know, things like that. And the governor made it very clear as the legislature. So this is December, right. And the legislature would normally not come into session until February. And, and it was pretty quick that people said, like, we have to respond to this legislative, we got to do something. And it was unusual. There seemed to be broad bipartisan consensus that we really didn't need to do something very comprehensive. To address this. the legislature's set up sort of a select kind of committee to try and come up with a comprehensive proposal. The Governor was consulting with a variety of experts, you know, and I was involved in that discussion. You know, by the time we got like, after about a month or so it was clear that there was a lot of ideas on the table, and that there was a willingness to do something very aggressive. And that's when the legislators started dragging their feet a little bit and I think this came more from. I don't want to be partisan here because the Democrats, Governor Malloy is a Democrat. I'm a Democrat, the legislature was controlled by Democrats. But the Republicans, I mean, that's where you found the concentration of sort of pro Second Amendment people from one of the better labor label, they started getting a lot of pushback from the gun manufacturers, and from the NRA, that, you know, don't agree to these things, you know, the original plan was to have a special session legislature in January to enact all this stuff. But that that never happened, because I couldn't quite get to the final finish line, because the goal was to have it be bipartisan. And in early February, late February, there still wasn't consensus around what to do. And then I remember Governor Malloy said, Okay, that's enough time, you got to do it. And he put out a list of things he should be in this because we have been working on stuff ourselves. And, and he kind of, I think it's fair to say shame the legislature into taking action, which they did. And the end result, in my experience was the most ambitious, comprehensive set of gun reform proposals I've ever seen. And, and they've been in effect now for almost 10 years. And I think the results speak for themselves, and Connecticut has the fourth lowest gun fatality rate in the country. And interestingly, the other states that are like 123456, with us are all in the northeast, they all have similar laws, we've accomplished these that much of the goal to get it to the point where it's very hard to get your hands on guns unless you can demonstrate that you're responsible gun owner. One of the big problems, of course, is that guns end up in Connecticut, illegally, because you can buy them in other states and just drag them here in the trunk of your car. It's all illegal. But I think if every state had laws similar to Connecticut's, there'd be a lot fewer people being shot and killed every year. And so, and in Connecticut, if you're a law abiding gun owner, you have every right to have as many guns as you want. And and that system seems to work pretty well.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Well, that's good. That's reassuring, even though it does seem like after Sandy Hook, for me, I was really altra aware of all the mass shootings that happened. And it seemed like there was practically a new one every week in the country. So for me, just kind of going back to when I found out about what was going on, I was actually registering for school. I was in the last semester of my graduate degree. And I was actually registering and the ladies behind the counter said, oh, there's been a shooting in Newtown. And, like that got my attention right away. And I was the supervisor at the local coffee company, like I said, and for me, I just felt like I needed to be at the coffee shop. I don't know why. But I was like, Okay, I need to register, I need to go, I had no idea what the damage was, you know what the situation was, but I did go to work. And I put on my apron and started working and you know, parents were gathering there. The news media, once it kind of came out what was going on, they were there. They were trying to get me to make statements. And it was just, it was like nothing I had ever experienced before. And I guess one of the things about it that I wanted to say is that we had people calling from other countries to basically pay for our communities coffees. So like if a community member came in, people from other countries were like laying down their credit card and saying put $100 on, you know, because people were so torn up. And so, you know, moved by it. But, you know, I guess what happened then, for me and what I realized, because I do travel out of the country, not lately, but I do. And we have such a horrible reputation because of our the gun violence in our country. Some people will not come to our country just because of that, because they think they're going to come here and get shot, which they they good. It is possible. And so it really put us on, you know, the, I guess we already were but I think Sandy Hook was the thing that really put us on that international radar. And it made me start realizing, like what our perception as Americans I mean, in a bigger picture, how we're perceived. It's kind of I'm embarrassed about it. I'm embarrassed of our rugby, international reputation when it comes to gun violence. Yep, so that It was, that's kind of been my bigger picture. And I really appreciate the work that you've done, especially now that I've kind of, you know, done a deep dive into what you're doing and some of the different issues you've taken on, especially with gun legislation in the fact that, you know, you were the red flag guy. I didn't know that. And, you know, I don't know what else there is to say, I really haven't looked at this or talked about this in a long time. And like I said, I think it's time to kind of relook at it, assess where we are. And maybe you could tell us where, well, you kind of already did, how far we've come. And if we've made progress, do you think we've made progress as a country?

Mike Lawlor:

On this topic, as a country? Not a whole lot? I think, you know, because there are more and more guns in circulation every year. I don't know how many of these senseless shootings it's going to take before people are fed up. I mean, enough people to change the policies, it's, it seems daunting, right. And you know, the best might be the best we can do is like in our area of the country, we can have sensible laws, and, and as a result, a lot fewer people are getting killed. But I don't know, I think, you know, the polarization in politics makes it almost important, impossible to do anything significant. Really, you know, like the COVID situation being another example of this, it seems like any critical thinker, realizes there's very sensible things to do that doesn't really affect people's rights. But for whatever reason, people are reluctant to do this stuff. And, you know, by the way, one thing I didn't mention is, you know, like I said, I was in the legislature in the late 80s, early 90s. And, and we had a lot of hearings on different types of gun control bills. And I remember very clearly at the time thinking that what some of these folks are saying some citizens that came to testify in these bills, some of the things people are saying is like, they think that the Second Amendment was put in place, so that citizens could deal with tyranny on their own. In other words, if they don't like something, they feel like they have the right under the Second Amendment to take guns and deal with it. And, and I remember thinking like, that's like, not, that's pretty unhealthy, because I'm pretty sure that's why they put elections in the Constitution, right? That you may not agree all the time. But okay, we all have a opportunity to weigh in on this. And when the decisions made the decisions made, and and, and I, that's my ultimate fear. It's not just like these random shootings, but it's just, you know, people in, it's why I mentioned the January 6 situation, if you added a bunch of guns into that, you can only imagine how bad that would have gotten so. So that's a real concern about people's views about owning guns. And the other thing we're finding the police will tell you that in recent years, when they are investigating different types of situations, it's not unusual to find that a gun owner has like 10 or 100 guns and 1000s and 1000s of rounds of ammunition and all kinds of weaponry. I mean, so it's not the case, like people have a shotgun and maybe a handgun for, like, they have countless guns in their homes. And it's like, what is the thought process that goes into this? Right, and the manufacturers are marketing, you know, they're deliberately trying to sell people more and more guns, right. I mean, one, you know, have a customer buy all these different types of guns, different colors, different models, different, you know, add ons and stuff like that. It's just like, this is this is a little bit crazy, you know, and

Anne Marie Cannon:

yeah, it's, we're, it is a different mindset. It is a different mindset. And I was surprised that week after the shooting, I had a conversation with somebody who I respect who was in law enforcement who really gave me some backlash about, you know, we need to do better with gun laws and all that kind of thing. And I just, it was the first time I was I really realized what you're talking about is it is a different mindset. And, and people are very stubborn about what they believe and they I am still shocked that we didn't immediately as a country, you know, do something about this issue that we have with, you know, so many guns and people going in and shooting up places. I was And in, in in in way, I have to say I feel, and this is probably why I don't talk about it very often is because I kind of I feel hopeless about it. I feel hopeless, that there's going to be any kind of real change.

Mike Lawlor:

Well, I mean, sooner or later, it's going to happen, you know, I can't remember, I had dialogues with the gun crowd. In all these various debates that I can remember saying to them, I said, Look, you know, your worst nightmare is that the Second Amendment gets repealed and all the guns get confiscated, right. Okay, I got that. I personally don't think that's very likely. But I personally, that's your worst nightmare. But all I can tell you for sure, is that the more of these incidents that happen, the sooner that day is going to come. So it seems to me it's in your best interest to figure out a system, which makes it less likely this stuff is going to happen, right? If you care about your guns, you don't want these mentally disturbed people shooting up schools and supermarkets and stuff like that. Because each time this happens, the odds that you're you're, you're the things you feel like you're entitled to are going to be affected. Right. And so it's like, we're all have to take responsibility here. And it's almost as though when you talk these people, it's in the aftermath of one of these shootings. It's like, well, it's all about mental health and some of it Okay, fair enough. What about a mandatory mental health examination? In order to have a gun permit? Yeah, no, we can't. Well, then what are you saying? Right? I mean, yeah, what is it? You're saying? It's about mental health? You know, it's, it's, it's, it's frustrating. But I don't know, I'm an optimist. So I think it will get better over time. But

Anne Marie Cannon:

well, I'm gonna go back to what you said in the beginning of the interview, is that incrementally things change. And I And when I'm talking to you, I can think of some people who have changed. I can think of one particular individual that I know that got rid of all of their automatic weapons, which what do you need that for? But somehow, the event and my closeness to it and my passion about it? helped them to realize, yeah, I don't need this. neither does anybody else. And so it's incremental. And I will try to keep landing back on that. What you said in the beginning, because I think that that does, you know, that's how things are changed more incrementally. So thank you. I really have enjoyed talking to you and learning more about this. Was there anything that I didn't ask you, or that you wanted to talk about? Yeah,

Mike Lawlor:

I'll just say one thing. And I will be forever grateful that on that day in Sandy Hook, I was not asked to go down to to Newtown. To be at that school. You know, I know quite a few people from the governor, to state police, to prosecutors who were there on that day, and I think they're, the mental images they have will haunt them for the rest of their lives. So I'm very grateful. I didn't, I wasn't required to do that. Right. And so I just feel bad for the people who were directly and indirectly, involved in these things. Because I can't even I'm especially from the parents, to the teachers, to the townspeople, like yourself, you know, it's just the idea that these things actually happen, is just something that will torment people for their entire lives.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Yeah, it is unfortunate. I was. I had a long distance relationship with a guy from Madison. And he came, he was coming to New Town for Christmas to spend Christmas with me. You know, of course, he had his tickets and everything, and then the shooting. And then when he got here, he said, we were in a grocery store. And I remember him saying, everybody looks like they're in Shell Shock. Like, there was a bomb that went off. And he said, it's in everybody's face. And it was, you know, that I stepped back and looked at it. And it was like, Yeah, this town in this community is changed forever. And I you know, yeah.

Mike Lawlor:

And I would say like, I think it's even more so. Because, I mean, as you know, Newtown is a very upscale, upper middle class, lower upper class community, and, you know, it's almost all white. It's, you know, this, you know, I think people move there because they felt that it was so Totally safe they can send their kids to good school. And the for this to happen there. I think people could say within it could happen everywhere anywhere. Yeah, it definitely could happen anywhere, that's for sure. That's a fact. And, and that's all the more you cannot escape these things. I mean, the odds of that are going to actually happen to you are extremely low, but they do happen and, and they can be prevented. And that's the key thing. So in one respect, and I think that's why you got action you got to got in the Connecticut legislature that year, because I think people felt vulnerable. And, and so here we are.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Yeah. So where can people find you? What are you doing today?

Mike Lawlor:

Well, I'm I've been teaching at the University of New Haven, I'm an Associate Professor of Criminal Justice, been teaching there since 1995. And, you know, I'm no longer not in the legislature. I'm not working for the governor anymore. But on the New Haven board of police commissioners, we do the hiring and firing of cops and all the training and stuff. And the governor appointed me to the police officer Standards and Training Council for the state. So I'm involved in curriculum for police officers. And I only bring that up. Because this training that goes along with the red flag laws, for example, is so important. And I think police are much more aware today than they were 10 or 20 years ago, what options are available to them. And I try and emphasize how important it is not only for people to reach out to the police and give them information, let the police investigated, but the police have to know how to take advantage of the authority that they've got to deal with these situations, refer people to mental health evaluation and treatment or separate them from their guns, stuff like that. And so things are getting I can see on the front line, things get a little bit better, right. And so I'm happy to have that ability to do those things. Even today, in my old age, right?

Anne Marie Cannon:

In your old age 65 later

Mike Lawlor:

this month, I'm all excited. Oh, my goodness, you

Anne Marie Cannon:

don't look a day over 40. So there's one more thing I'm going to ask you. And it has nothing to do with the subject are talking about, but I'm wondering if maybe you'll come back in October and talk about same sex union and the impact that you've had on it. That type of thing? Yeah, because I do. One of my favorite things to talk about is to talk about the LGBT history. I've had some amazing guests. I don't know if you've listened to my podcast at all. But I recently talked to a married couple who put out a book and perhaps you've seen it, it's called Loving a Pictorial History of men in love. 1859 to 1959. It's a beautiful book, beautiful. It's these two guys that, yeah, these two guys that. You know, they were a couple since the 80s. You know, they've been together since then they're still very romantic, which I absolutely love. But they started collecting these photographs. And somebody eventually recently told them, this needs to be a book. And so what I tried to do is I try to bring to light, the hidden history, the raised histories, the important the things that I think are important. And so if I tap on your shoulder again, maybe you'll come back in October for LGBT month.

Mike Lawlor:

Yeah, sure. No problem left. Oh, my Connecticut was a pacesetter on that topic, too. So happy to talk about that whole process.

Anne Marie Cannon:

Yeah. Oh, good. Oh, goody. All right. Well, thank you again. I really, you know, I learned a lot. Hopefully, I'll move forward armed with this information that you've given me in the hope, the incremental hope I like that. And, you know, hopefully, we'll talk again, thanks for being here. Anytime. There you have it. Mike Lawler on the ninth anniversary of the Sandy Hook shooting. Talking about gun legislation. Be sure to check out our episode notes. To find out more about Mike and how you can make a difference. Today, I'd like to end the show with the names of the 26 innocent victims that lost their life tragically. On December 14 2012. Charlotte bacon six Daniel Barden, seven Rachel divino 29. Olivia angle six. Josephine gray seven. Anna. Mark has green six. Dylan Hockley six Don hashbrown 47. Madeline F, su six cat They're in B Hubbard six. Chase Kowalski seven, Jesse Lewis six. James Matteoli six. Grace MacDonald seven, and Marie Murphy. 52. Emily Parker six. Jack Pinto six. No Pozner, sex. Caroline privity, six, Jessica Reiko 's six, a veal Richmond six, Lauren Russo 30 Mary Sherlock 56 Victoria Soto 27 Benjamin Wheeler sex, Alison and Wyatt sex