A Haunted History of Invisible Women, Leanna Renee Heiber and Andrea Janes Part 1

If you know Anne Marie at all, you know that Halloween is her favorite holiday. Some of you may know that, as a side gig, she is the founder of Silver Queen Walking Tours. By popular demand, she does more ghost tours than straight history tours. So when she discovered this newly released book, A Haunted History of Invisible Women: True Stories of America's Ghosts, by these two amazing women who have first-hand knowledge and experience of the art and mystery behind the ghost tour guide craft, she was sold before cracking the book open.

This non-fiction book is coauthored by actress, playwright, ghost tour guide and award-winning bestselling author Leanna Renee Hieber and Boroughs of the Dead founder Andrea Janes. 

“Sorrowful widows, vengeful jezebels, innocent maidens, wronged lovers, even the occasional axe-murderess—America’s female ghosts differ widely in background, class, and circumstance. Yet one thing unites them: their ability to instill fascination and fear long after their deaths. Here are the full stories behind some of the best-known among them, as well as the lesser-known—though no less powerful. Tales whispered in darkness often divulge more about the teller than the subject.” 

Their approach to the ghost story differs from most in that they look at the history of these tales and the deeper implications of how we have traditionally framed the spooky campfire stories we love to hear and tell.


Buy the book: A Haunted History of Invisible Women: True Stories of America's Ghosts, bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/p/books/a-haunted-history-of-invisible-women-true-stories-of-america-s-ghosts-leanna-renee-hieber/17787938?ean=9780806541587

Andrea Janes, website: https://boroughsofthedead.com
Twitter: @MacabreNYC
Instagram: @boroughsofthedead
Facebook: Boroughs of the Dead

Leanna Renee Hieber, website: https://www.leannareneehieber.com
Blog: http://leannareneebooks.blogspot.com
Twitter: @Leannarenee
Instagram: @leannareneehieber
Facebook: Leanna Renee Hieber

Silver Queen Walking Tours: https://www.silverqueenwalkingtours.com

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Transcript

Anne Marie Cannon: 0:00

Hello, my name is Anne Marie cannon and I'm the host of armchair historians. What's your favorite history? Each episode begins with this one question. Our guests come from all walks of life, YouTube celebrities, comedians, historians, even neighbors from the small mountain community that I live in. There are people who love history and get really excited about a particular time, place or person from our distant or not so distant past. The jumping off point is the place where they became curious that entered the rabbit hole into discovery, fueled by an unrelenting need to know more, we look at history through the filter of other people's eyes. I'm sure historians is a belt and rabbit production. Stay up to date with us through Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Wherever you listen to your podcast that is where you'll find us. I'm Chair historians is an independent, commercial free podcast. If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad free, you can buy us a cup of coffee through cofee or you can become a patron through Patreon links to both in the Episode Notes. Hello fellow armchair historians and Murray here. If anyone knows me at all, they know that Halloween is my favorite holiday. Some of you may know that as a side gig. I'm a history tour operator who by popular demand does more ghost tours than straight history tours. So when I discovered this newly released book, a haunted history of invisible women, true stories of America's ghosts by these two amazing women who have first hand knowledge and experience of the art in mystery behind the ghost tour guide craft. I was sold before cracking the book open. This nonfiction book is co authored by actress playwright ghost tour guide and award winning Best Selling Author Leanna Renee Hieber and burls of the dead founder Andrea Jaynes. Now the book covers and I quote, sorrowful widows, vengeful desert bells, innocent maidens wronged lovers, even the occasional acts murderous. America's female ghosts differ widely in background, class, and circumstances. Yet one thing unites them their ability to instill fascination and fare long after their deaths. Here are the full stories behind some of the best known among them, as well as the lesser known, though no less powerful. Tales whispered in darkness often divulge more about the teller than the subjects and quote, their approach to the ghost story differs from most in that they look at the history of these tales, but also the deeper implications of how we have traditionally framed the spooky campfire stories. We love to hear and Tao. I hope you enjoy this first episode of our October history in haunting series. I will tell you right from the beginning of the interview, I had technical audio issues, I say that near quotes, which I did my best to fix and post editing, I do my own editing. And while I'm no audio engineer, there did seem to be let me just say, more audio anomalies, unusual. There was a lot of static on Andrea's track, and no matter what we tried, nothing seemed to get it right. And then in the middle of the recording, inexplicably, Lian his volume went down. It wasn't last on all three of us conveyors of other worldly stories, as it is not uncommon for spirits from the beyond to come through via electronic digital devices. Liana and Andrea, welcome to armchair historians. Thanks for having us. So glad to be here. So excited because we are cuts from similar cloth, I think. But um, I like to do special Halloween month kind of episodes. And I found you guys somewhere on the internet and was really intrigued by this book that you're going to be talking about. So I start each interview with the question, What is your favorite history that we're going to be talking about today? Leanna you could go first. Oh my gosh, this is like when we when we are asked which are is our favorite ghost story. It's like choosing a child, like a favorite child you're not supposed to. They're all equally loving, lovable, right?

Leanna: 4:33

I think for me that the chapter that I was most concerned about getting correct was my unfinished business chapter which is my chapter about Sarah Winchester and the Winchester Mystery House. And that particular history because Sarah Winchester has been so kind of maligned by history and so many history been fabricated about her. That's why I was particularly concerned with making sure that I didn't accidentally perpetuate any of the myths that had been swirling around her. So I tried to be very clear about what the myths have been. And about what as much of her history as we know, the thing of it is, she was a very private person. So there's a lot of things that are in fact, just speculation. But I went so far as to, to not only travel to the Mystery House specifically for the chapter, and and talk with the guides there and the house historian there and did a lot of reading. But I also went to her grave in New Haven, Connecticut, and like, prayed at her grave for her permission for this chapter. So I was pretty thorough on that one.

Anne Marie Cannon: 5:45

So what Let's just tell the audience what is the name of the book again,

Leanna: 5:49

it is a haunted history of invisible women, true stories of America's ghosts, and it's separated into different sections, with different tropes that women might fall into in our various categories. So we Andrea, do you want to pipe in about your favorite history? Yeah, I interpreted the question differently. I love it. I love that because that is the thing I've noticed since I've been doing these interviews is that, you know, there's no right or wrong answer. And people have their own perspective and world from which they come. And so they interpret things in their own way. And I liked that about doing interviews. So do share. Oh, okay. So, you know, I read the question, and I thought, not of our book, I thought of like, a historical era. And I don't know why. But so I was like, What is my favorite history? And I kind of like the in between period, where it's like a post Revolutionary War, pre Civil War. So like, they'll very, very ladder years of the 18th century, early years of the 19th century, so like, yeah, your Washington Irving era, you know, like, like, put me around 1809 to 1820. Right up until probably the 1840s. I find that a very interesting period. It's very transitional. And some, it's very strange.

Andrea: 7:08

A lot of the institutions that we think of as being fundamentally American haven't been established yet fully. And they're growing and they're struggling. And they're burgeoning. And they're changing. And especially in New York City, it's a city that's rebuilding, getting back on its feet after being burned to the ground, basically, during the war. So you have a city that's really just coming into its own, everything's in flux. Everything's a little weird. And everything's just kind of finding its footing. So it's an interesting time like, Jacksonian America is weird to me. So I enjoyed that. In terms of bringing it back to the book, I enjoyed the bell witch chapter, because it I think, is the only one that actually took place. And I love

Anne Marie Cannon: 7:45

it. I love that in between in the way you described it very succinctly.

Andrea: 7:49

I was thinking like in terms of, say, the newspaper industry, right?

Leanna: 7:53

Totally, I just have to say, Andrea's Bell, which chapter is excellent. So that was one of those chapters where I just sat back, and just was in awe of the power of that chapter and how she brings very, very real discussion of trauma into that particular chapter, which is a very, very famous documented case, but it also just has lots of possible ramifications. I am very excited for everyone to read that chapter.

Anne Marie Cannon: 8:20

I'm excited about the book. I've read some of it, but not the whole thing. And I do love your approach. Leanna. Could you maybe turn up your volume a little bit? Yeah, I

Leanna: 8:30

sure can't. Is my input a little bit better at this point?

Anne Marie Cannon: 8:36

Maybe a little bit louder?

Leanna: 8:42

How about this? Is that better?

Anne Marie Cannon: 8:44

Yeah, I don't know. It's funny, because once we started talking, your volume went down, down, maybe turn it down a little bit, because now I'm getting

Leanna: 8:52

a little static. Now you're getting Yeah, I was gonna say I was trying to make sure that I wasn't a tech

Anne Marie Cannon: 8:56

person. And I've tried to perfect this. Since I

Leanna: 9:00

Yeah, it's tough. It's like, I wonder if it's something that Riverside is doing? Because it's just it's, it is fluctuating for sure.

Anne Marie Cannon: 9:07

So don't go on it.

Andrea: 9:09

And I will say, in all of our defenses, it could be not us, because ghosts and tech are notoriously incompatible. It's true. And I will say that around me.

Anne Marie Cannon: 9:24

I live in a very haunted town. So I And I have that's a good point. But yeah, that could be we've had some occurrences in our house, so yep, same here.

Andrea: 9:36

I do see some text scrolling across my screen now that just says release me. I don't know who's typing that. No, okay.

Anne Marie Cannon: 9:45

Oh, you had me there. You must. Yeah, no, see.

Leanna: 9:49

That's the thing about Andrea. She speaks with such authority and then you have to be like,

Andrea: 9:53

Oh my God. My kid does that too. This morning. She was explaining to me how electricity works and it was like all total BS but she was telling me very authoritative leader was like, Oh, you have the gift.

Anne Marie Cannon: 10:06

As you just say it as if it's true shares this guy. There's a guy in town who used to do tours and an old firehouse. And half the shit he said was BS, but I'll probably cut this out. But he said it was such authority that I quoted him and then later found out that, oh, that's not necessarily true. And then he told me, he said, If I don't know what they are talking about, I just say it as if it's true. And I make stuff up and I'm like, oh, geez,

Leanna: 10:37

you believe it? We do try in our, in our collective defense about our situation here. We are trying, we do try to make sure it's very clear in our book, what is possibly unsubstantiated? And what is in fact, historical records. So we

Anne Marie Cannon: 10:56

begin telling ghost stories I started out with, because I'm a history geek. And I started out with the desire to do walking history tours, you know, talk about the history of town, and then somebody in town said, oh, you should do ghost tours. That's a void. We don't have that here. And so I had started collecting all these stories. And, you know, things that I say in my tour, some people believe. So if I'm presenting something that is very questionable, or could be questioned, they say that's another one I use. And, but then when it comes to history, I definitely authoritative and believe what I'm saying. So anyways, that's, that's interesting. I love that you guys do ghost tours? Do you do history tours to straight history?

Andrea: 11:46

Well, the tours that we get, go ahead, Liana.

Leanna: 11:50

I have I have done tours in the past with other companies that are just just historical fact. But I didn't enjoy working with those companies. They're not as fun.

Anne Marie Cannon: 12:04

I don't know about you, but I'm really into the stories of the people. And you know, what their perceptions were and from that perspective, so anyways, one of the things that you said in the book, Andrea, is that that really spoke to me was in the beginning, you say, as cultural critic, Andy sessler writes, and this really popped out at me, female ghosts have every bit of anger that makes living woman sources affair, but none of the restriction in this way. Ghost Stories are often photo feminist by unleashing a lifetime, a lifetime's worth of rage and retribution. You say, while it's easy to dismiss and belittle a living woman who dares to be vocally critical or angry, it is much harder to silence a ghost. And there that's the that's the line I was trying to get to. She has remarkable staying power. And I was telling Leanna, before you came on, Andrea, that I'm watching a handmade stale, so converged and what I do with ghost tours, talking about women, and also that show, so maybe you guys could talk a little bit more about that.

Andrea: 13:26

Totally. Yeah, I actually just want to speak really, really quickly to something you said before about history, because all of our tours are grounded in history. And I want to quote Liana, here, this is a quote, I like put a little graphic under it, and I put it on Instagram. And I want to put it on our website. If you're cool that telling a ghost story in combination with a precise historical location infuses a dynamic mysticism into what is otherwise taken as historical fact. It gives us as tour guides another angle and perspective by which to consider the past and present merging timelines to make figures of history, contemporaneous and haunting. And I love that so like when people say are your tours, historical tours or ghost tours and like they're both the history undergirds the ghost tour and the ghost tour gives us a new lens through which to appreciate these histories. So that's like, I think one of my favorite quotes in the book for that Andy sighs What are quotes, that's another one people are going to underline a lot. The the ghost does have staying power, and you can't shut her up. And I think it's one of the few opportunities that men have to actually, you know, bypass any kind of patriarchal social structure that can silence them because none of your earthly laws apply anymore. So they're Ironically though that particular article that I quote by Andy sighs that references a lot of international ghost stories, Japanese and other ghost stories. And when I started researching American ghost stories, taking that as my premise, I was excited to find rebellious angry female ghosts. There were remarkably few. Most American female ghosts are pretty well behaved and I was surprised and a little disappointed because I was like, where are all these vents? For, you know, I'm thinking about the vegetable Japanese goes to come back and they're angry. And they and here I wrote a chapter about ghostly prostitutes, which is a designation I use, because I don't think sex worker can be applied retroactively. Like, there was no only fans back then, like, if you were a sex worker, you probably were a prostitute. So that's why we use the old designation. But I wrote this chapter, I was all jazzed to write about these prostitutes because they don't even like murdered by their John's and raped and killed and thrown out of windows. And I was like, they're gonna be mad. And they weren't. They were like, sexy and fun. And they laughed and smelled like perfume and left pearls on pillows. And I was like, wow, okay. All right. So that was an interesting one to kind of wrap my mind around. And I think you can see me doing my mental journal, you know, gyrations as I'm writing the chapter. I'm like, Okay, so maybe we shouldn't be all like hand wringing about them. And maybe it's okay that they're enjoying their afterlife. But also, it's still a little weird. And I don't know.

Anne Marie Cannon: 15:55

Leann Leanna has something to say I can see there's something bubbling up in her mirror is,

Leanna: 16:00

and it's also in how they've been framed by the tourism industry, because a lot of those stories cannot be exactly sourced to a specific historical lady. So a lot

Andrea: 16:15

of them. Yeah, a lot of them are amalgamations. Yeah, there's no specific percentage. And a lot of them are sources for them are tourists, institutions, hotels, bars, and so on.

Anne Marie Cannon: 16:28

I will say that you have changed. Already, the way that I'm thinking about framing some of my ghosts are women in my stories that I tell and there's one particular woman who is portrayed as a horrible woman, you know, she hated her husband, and she poisoned them. But I found my stuff. No, I found myself stepping back because I was a social worker for 10 years. I spend myself stepping back and thinking, Well, why was she so angry in life? And why? What was her experience with men that, and I never thought about that until I read those lines that we just talked about. So I think a lot of it does have to do with how we frame as Leanne Liana said, how we frame the stories, and I am already so grateful to both of you for presenting this idea to me as in my business, because I do try to one of the things I like to talk about on my tour is in this historical Rocky Mountain mining town is that we had a very diverse population here that nobody talks about, you know, the touristy kind of places, and I've been trying to kind of uncover that, but I've neglected my women. And so thank you for kind of bringing that to the forefront for me, I appreciate that.

Andrea: 17:47

And when you find it particularly vengeful, violent, or you know the line malignant female ghost, and you think about her as a whole woman and a whole person, they say this a lot about moms, if you see a mom like angry yelling at her kids, you know, don't judge her say to yourself, Which of her needs are not being met. You know, an angry mom goes to angry ghost is a woman whose whose needs were fundamentally unmet, you know, by the society in which she lived. I haven't seen a Handmaid's Tale, by the way, I read the book in high school, like 20 years ago, I got the gist of it.

Anne Marie Cannon: 18:19

It's really disturbing. I do fast forward a lot through some of the scenes because it's too much for me, but my daughter has been bugging me to to watch it. And I finally and I'm a binge eater, so I started watching it a couple of weeks ago, and I'm on this, you know, binge that I till I get to the end. So it's disturbing, I will tell you that in a lot of ways. So why don't you both kind of take a stab at telling us about the book?

Andrea: 18:48

Well, first and foremost, is the greatest book ever written. Man, how would you describe it?

Leanna: 18:56

Yes. It is a curated selection of women's ghost stories around the country. And we're interested in the intersection of women's history and ghost stories. So they are broken down into trope rather than by geography. And we tried to get a range of geography going but that wasn't actually really our main focus, our main focus was trying to touch down on what does the historic which mean and we have that in quotations. What does a historic madwoman and again, very important that that's in quotations. What is what is your typical ghost bride or wife or mother? What are the different tropes by which we might be separating out these ghosts into their respective categories? And thanks to our brilliant editor, Elizabeth May at Kensington who helped us structure the book by trope and I sort of general premise behind the stories. So it was important for us to make sure that each of the sections had enough meaty, juicy stories in them, some of which are absolutely very easily verifiable historical people. Other stories are complete fabrications, and we break those things down, or our stories about a actual person who was portraying an absolute fabrication. So there's, there's lots of layers of of reality and mythmaking, that are having a conversation. We want this book to be a prompt. So we're so grateful that you use this book already, as a prompt as a question, to look at how we in this business are talking about people. And yes, we're coming at it from the from the lens of women, but it also is just that that diversity angle, any marginalized person is going to come at this with a different into intersectional reality into this story of the past and the present, and our cultural obsession with hauntings. So we do try I mean, my my introduction title is existential questions, because that's what I come to everything with, and we hope we leave you with a few while being entertained.

Anne Marie Cannon: 21:24

Yes, yes. And I do love that because it's totally with the times as far as how are how are we framing our historical narratives that is a journey that we've been as a culture looking at, and we'll be doing for a long time. And I think that I would have never thought that this would have opened my eyes as much as it has already. Andrea, so tell me about the tropes, like what are the tropes that you break your chapters down to?

Andrea: 21:57

Right. So that was, by the way, the most perfect, succinct summary, by the way? For sure. And exactly, Emery, what you added to that is that yeah, we are rethinking the ways we view our history. So I'm glad that this has been part of that conversation for you. While the tropes like Lana mentioned, these were the brainchild of our editor, and when she suggested organizing it that way, I was really thrilled. I was like I'm gonna love working with this person, because the whole idea of femininity and gender being performative and being a construction plays into that the idea that you have these roles, these feminine roles. So you have maidens and my first thought was like, alright, made his mother's crumbs, right? So we have maidens. We have witches, mothers and wives, Jessa bells, mad women in quotes, and widows and spinsters, and then we have a fun like outlier paragraph on on frauds, which I don't think he can talk about goes without talking about frauds and myth making. So for me, I liked the tropes as an organizational principle. And also, again, like I said, keeping in mind the idea that gender is constructed, and these roles are performative. So I thought that worked on a couple of different levels.

Anne Marie Cannon: 23:04

Thank you. Okay, so, in the book Leanna, you say the thing that surprised me most about becoming a ghost tour guide, was that I became a sort of paranormal chaplain, I freaking love that. guiding my own audiences through their own questions about the beyond. And why this really struck me is because what I've noticed is so I started out doing really thinking I'd be straight history tours. Honestly, I have had not one sign up for our history tour this year, I saw the ghost tours. And one of the things that I always say, and when I'm talking about this to my group is, you know, this is a place where we can talk about this stuff. And we can think about what happens to us where do our loved ones go? And I never thought of it in that terms. And you actually put terms into it for me. So can you talk a little bit more about that?

Leanna: 24:01

Yeah. But what I mean by paranormal Chaplain Absolutely, because in and I just didn't really realize until I was leading tours, and literally walking people through a city, as if we were on a processional, and the, the church imagery just kind of struck me because I'm very, very interested in like high church mysticism. And I realized that when people were coming up to me to tell me their stories, they were always coming to me with an energy that felt like I was about to receive a confessional because in somewhere in there, they are worried that I am going to think that they're crazy, even though the general premise is I'm telling you ghost stories. So obviously, you're not in a you're in a good place. You're, you know, and yet, and yet people were like, Yeah, but really, though, and so, the amount of times that I get every single tour, somebody comes up to me and says, What do you really believe though? I try to be very open I'm very honest on my tourism, like I am a believer. But I believe you should approach everything with a healthy bit of skepticism because our imaginations are just so powerful. And that's a wonderful thing. But an overactive imagination is gonna posit things that aren't necessarily there. And I don't want to lead with that, as as just oh, this is just creativity at work. I'm a believer, but I'm a skeptic first and a believer second, when all everything else is ruled out, then the unexplained remains. So people coming to me with their, what do you think about this? It's they're both telling me a story. They're sharing something. And they also are absolutely bringing to me and laying at my feet, their fundamental grasp of mortality. And their fundamental question of the of, Is there life after death? And can we rely on it? And is it something we can or should grasp? Those are big, huge things, and I'm honored to be in that place with these people. And every time they share a story with me, I make sure that they feel absolutely, that they have given me a blessing, that they have shared this intimate thing with me, that is an inexplicable thing. And I just tried to be very real and very warm, and very accepting with that I'll never forget, there was this kid from down south. He was this young, maybe 12 year old boy, and his father. And towards the end of the tour, I just saw the father, like nod the kid up to walk with me between sections. And he just asked me what I thought about the idea that his grandma might still be in his living room. And I said, Well, how do you feel about that? Is it good to see her? Because I don't know what I don't know what these relationships are. I don't go in presuming anybody's relationship with the ghost that they're telling me that they've seen? And he said, Yeah. And he just he smiled very warmly, I said was, is that a feel like she's watching out for you maybe. And he nodded, I said, well, then that's what that is. She's just looking out for you. And that's what you see. And that's your memories with her that are there in that moment. And just enjoy that. And don't worry about that being anything but what it is. But I said, here's what you will have to worry about. Sometimes there's going to be places and spaces where that's not going to be welcome information for some people. And some people aren't going to know how to take that. And some people are not going to believe you. And I trust you to know when it's safe to share that knowledge and your experiences. And when it's better to just keep it between yourself and your loved ones who do believe you. And that seemed to land for that kid. Because I've definitely been in spaces where my discussions of my belief structures are not necessarily welcome and are not going to be heard. So I'm not gonna push it on anybody. But I also don't want this kid to be made to feel by somebody else is crazy. And so that the dad just like, had tears in his eyes, and just was like, Ah, thank you, you know, because it just was one of those things where it's like, I don't know if they knew how to talk about it together. But like, here, I was this outside objective person, who could just be like, I believe you. But be careful. I said, you've got a sensitivity. I said, and that's, that's a gift. But like everything, you know, sometimes there's two sides of that. So that's a good answer. That was my, that was probably one of my most and I do actually, I think I referenced that in my introduction, because it was one of the things where I felt like, I really felt like that was a moment where I was like a pastor fielding a question from a congregation is what that felt like to me.

Anne Marie Cannon: 28:51

You know, I, who would have thought, you know, ghosts tour guides would have these profound experiences. There's at least one story that I can really relate to that with, but it is it's that underlying fundamental thing about death that we do think about every day, though we're, you know, taught not to talk about it, and that it is huge. People don't know it, but it is huge. And I really love your approach to it. Andrea, what are your thoughts about that?

Leanna: 29:22

But I think that as ghosts or guides, we have a responsibility to not be cavalier about these topics. And it's a very awkward and fine line to straddle, because ghost tours primarily perceived as entertainment, I think. And I, from the very beginnings when I first started doing this job was always aware of how difficult a position that put me in, you know, I was like, my job is literally to speak ill of the dead in some cases, you know, to gin up their stories for a fact. And I was like, Well, if we base this on the premise that a real person lived and died, and their ghost is still present in some way. What do we owe them? Spirit in over the years, you know, so people have accused me repeatedly of sucking the fun out of ghost tours. But I know and I was like, Maybe I am, maybe I should be more fun. As I kind of stuck to my guns and continue to offer these like fairly serious minded tours, I found the response was really gratifying because people were looking for that I think people are, first of all, there's always going to be a subset of person that's on the tour because they like local history and ghost stories are a very fun way to engage with local history. And I love that and I'm all for it. I'm also of that mindset. And I think it's great. And I collect local ghost stories. Everywhere I go, I buy the books, I go on the tours, I love them as very niche local histories. I think they're wonderful. There's also another layer though, and that's where I talk about the responsibility coming in. Are these our ancestors are these spirits here in some form. And even if you don't believe they're here, literally, metaphorically, they deserve to be honored. If the history of this country is one that has a history of bloodshed, as every country on Earth is, then these ancestors do deserve to be honored. And in many countries on earth, they are honored. But here sometimes there's a void in that regard. And I think people are longing to fill that void, which is why they respond so profoundly to our tours. And I think also that nowadays, when the virus came, I was worried. The pandemic I thought would quash a lot of people's desire to go on a ghost tour, but it did the opposite. And they became extremely popular. Because people do want to talk about death. I think people are tired of ignoring death. And America's tendency to not talk about death, I think is making people feel depleted and empty. And I think they longed to discuss it. And they longed to talk about it. And they, they want to talk about the past. And yes, there's always going to be someone on a tour that's like, you're making this political. I don't like this. And it's like, it's not politics, it's humanity. And these things happened. And I'm not I don't have an axe to grind. I don't have an agenda. I'm not going to hit you with a petition. At the end of the tour. I'm just telling you what happened. I think that there is definitely a market for a ghost tour that does consider the deeper implications of our history and our lives, our depth and our spirits. So I think it's there and at the same time, yeah, like, we have fun, we make jokes, it's entertaining. The stories are amazing and weird, but like, there's room and people are very receptive. To that, that space.

Anne Marie Cannon: 32:26

We're gonna stop here for today. And we'll pick up next week where we left off with Andrea and Leanna in part two. In the meantime, to find out more about the book, a haunted history of invisible women, true stories of America's ghosts. And to find out more about burrows of the dead history tours, be sure to check out our episode notes. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week.