Stitching a Safe Passage: Barbara Stark-Nemon on Isabela’s Way

In this episode
Anne-Marie Cannon is joined by author Barbara Stark-Nemon, whose novels span centuries and borders. They dive into Barbara’s newest historical novel, Isabela’s Way, set in Inquisition-era Portugal, Spain, France, and Germany, and explore how history lives on through family memory, travel, and storytelling.

Topics we cover

• Isabela’s Way and the history behind it
• The Inquisition and why it’s still misunderstood
• Embroidery as coded communication and safe passage
• Refugee histories and inherited resilience
• “Unexpected allies” and resisting black-and-white narratives
• Emotional truth vs. historical accuracy
• How genealogy and DNA uncover hidden pasts
• Writing as an encore career and the path to publication

About Barbara Stark-Nemon
Barbara Stark-Nemon is the author of Isabela’s Way, Even in Darkness, and Hard Cider. A self-taught historian and traveler, her work explores resilience, identity, and survival across turbulent historical moments.

Connect with Barbara

• Website: https://www.barbarastarknemon.com
  
  
• Substack: https://barbarastarknemon.substack.com
  
  
• Barbara is also available for book clubs (via Zoom or in person when local).

More from Armchair Historians

• Show notes include links to everything discussed, ways to support the show, and a free short story downloadintroducing Bedlam, from Anne-Marie Cannon’s forthcoming historical fiction series.
• Website: https://www.amcannon.com
  
  

Support the show
Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. Ratings, reviews, and shares help more listeners discover Armchair Historians.

Transcript

0:02

Hello fellow. I'm chair Historians. Welcome to the show. I'm Anne-Marie Cannon, your host, historical fiction author, and curious soul, always chasing the human side of history. Show notes include my website, links to content discussed in the episode, how to support the show, and a free short story download that introduces readers to bedlam from my soon to be released historical fiction series. On this podcast, my guests share the history they love most and we experience it through their eyes, what fascinates them, what they've uncovered, and why the story still matters. Let's get into it. Hello fellow armchair historians. I'm your host Anne-Marie Cannon, and today I'm joined by author Barbara Stark. Neiman Barbara's work spans centuries and borders from 20th century Germany shaped by war and displacement. To the perilous world of the Inquisition in Portugal, Spain, France, and Germany. Her newest novel Isabella's Way follows a 14-year-old girl navigating faith, identity, and survival through a clandestine network of safe houses. What Barbara describes as a 17th century version of the Underground Railroad. In this conversation we talk about history, learn through story, inherited memory, and what it means to search for emotional truth. Inside historical fact, we explore refugees and resistance, unexpected allies, and the powerful ways family histories echo forward into the present. So settle in because this episode reminds us that history is never just about the past.

Anne Marie: 1:52

Barbara Stark, Neiman, thanks for joining us today. Welcome to Armchair Historians.

Barbara: 1:57

Thank you, Annmarie. And as I said to you previously, I am so delighted to have found you and found armchair historians. I have been haunting listening and enjoying this podcast, so thanks for doing it. interview Barbar Stark-Nemon Tue 0857[00:00:00] Anne Marie: Barbara Stark, thanks for joining us today. Welcome to Armchair Historians. Barbara: Thank you, Annmarie. And as I said to you previously, I am so delighted to have found you and found armchair historians.~And~I have been haunting~and~listening and enjoying this podcast, so thanks for doing it. Thank you. Barbara: I appreciate that. And you know, we connected on a Facebook page for authors and I just, I knew right away, like I had two people reach out to me that are historical fiction writers. You were one of'em. And I was like, oh my God, this is a perfect match. I'm really excited to. Go on your journey with you about history~and, um, as I said earlier,~the first thing I ask is, what is your favorite history? Barbara:~And~as I responded to you,~um,~my favorite history is~actually~whatever I'm working on in my historical fiction journey. I love stories.[00:01:00] As a way to learn about particular areas of history. So I have done a deep dive into the experience of Germans in pre-World War I, into World War II and after World War II in Germany. Barbara: And I also now, my latest book takes place in 17th century,~which is~Inquisition era, Portugal, Spain, France, and Germany. So I've done deep dives into those periods, but pretty much I can engage with a story in any era and really love and learn more about it through those stories.~So~I have two questions, but I'll start with,~uh,~what. Anne Marie: Attracted you to the history of the book that you're working on right now, which maybe you could tell us the name of it. Is it out yet? When is it coming out? Tell us a little bit[about that history.~So~my current novel is called Isabella's Way,~a novel~it released on September 16th.~So it's new.~I'm,~as we speak~on book tour with it and it. Anne Marie: Is the story of a 14-year-old embroidery who must find her way out of Inquisition era Portugal~and find her way to,~through Spain and France~and~into,~um,~Germany in order to escape the inquisitors that are chasing her.~Uh,~she does not understand that her. Embroidery is being used by a clandestine network of safe houses, the 17th century version of an underground railroad,~in order~to signal safety or danger. Anne Marie: She also does not understand that she is not the good Catholic girl, that she was raised to believe that she was, that there's a. Different identity, a[Jewish identity, of her family, and~that~that's why she has to make this escape.~So~these things emerge over the course of the novel. Why this history? Anne Marie: So why this and why now?~This particular history. So,~Isabella came to me in 2011. I was on a kind of warrior woman bicycle trip from, Lisbon, Portugal to the Alhambra in Granada, Spain. We'd had some serious medical issues in our family. My husband was supposed to be with me.~Um,~he wasn't because he couldn't travel at that time. Anne Marie: My son was in Madrid. I wanted to visit him. we wanted to do this bike trip, so I did the bike trip There's a wonderful story, which I won't go into the whole thing about a Celtic standing stone circle and my writing down from this very challenging climb, and~this girl,~this 14-year-old[girl popped into my head. Anne Marie: I was in the middle of writing my first historical novel, even in darkness. I knew I had a second novel. In the pike. So I said, you need to wait because I can't do you now. And she did wait, through the writing and publication of two previous novels.~And~I served on the board of Jewish Family Services in my local community, which is the primary. Anne Marie: Agency that welcomes refugees into our county from all over the world,~and~I was very involved in~doing~strategic planning and in fundraising and so forth. My own two parents were refugees from Germany to the United States prior to World War II as teenagers. So the whole refugee concept. Is part of my DNA and part of my[choices, to use my skills~on behalf of, you know,~as a volunteer in agencies. Anne Marie: And then this girl popped into my head, and then to round it all off, I'm a fiber artist and so I was connected to all the embroidery that I saw, in that bike trip as we explored different.~Uh,~communities and the cultures surrounding them. So those things all conspired to make me do two more trips to the Iberian Peninsula, France, in Germany to actually trace the root of my characters as they made their way,~um, to,~to,~you know,~the end of the story. Anne Marie: Wow. I love that. That's how I connect to history as well. Travel and,~um,~family, you know, there's a family connection to pretty much everything that I do as far as writing and documentary,~uh,~filmmaking. Same, same. I know. That's why I was so[excited to see and read about all of the things that you're doing. Anne Marie:~So then I forgot the other question that came into my mind, but it'll pop back in~both of your novels weave together the personal and historical trauma with resilience and hope. How do you balance emotional truth with historical accuracy? Oh, I love that question. If I don't. Center myself around the emotional truth. I'm not writing the way I want to, so the emotional truth is at the center of my writing about these things. That said, I'm a bit of a stickler~and I, as I know many of your guests. Have declared this and I will declare it as well.~I love the research part of the books that I write, so I do the historical piece. Anne Marie: I very dedicated to doing[the research and I'm fortunate enough to be able to do the kind of traveling I've done. To get the sights and the sounds~and the~tastes and~the~colors, of the places~that~I visit.~But~I also do a lot of academic research, a lot of online research. Anne Marie:~And~it is a balancing act, but I'm never. Besieged by concerns about which thing has the priority. For me, the emotional truth takes precedence.~And~I've never been in a situation where I felt that there was a conflict between what I want to say and the historical truth, or what I want to say and the emotional truth. Anne Marie:~So~somehow I've managed to dodge that. Problem with balance, but I'm aware of it and~I'm, I'm~conscious of it. So~you this,~is this your third novel, the one that just came[out?~Yes.~Yes. So what were your other two and what was the history, those histories?~Excuse me. So~the first novel is based on a family story. Anne Marie: It's called Even in Darkness. It is based on the life of my great aunt who is the only member of~my grandfather's,~my maternal grandfather's family who did not escape Germany prior to the Holocaust.~And~she wouldn't leave the country because her. Mother wouldn't go, my great-grandmother. And because her husband had been mustard gassed in World War I and was ill,~and~if you were ill, you could not get an affidavit to come to this country. Anne Marie: And she wouldn't leave, her husband wouldn't leave her mother, so she stayed and she was a massage therapist. She ended up in a unusual relationship with a commandant at Ian spot, the concentration camp. She survived, kept everybody alive, her mother and her husband, and then lost everybody She fought to save, but went on to spend the rest of her life with a Catholic priest half her age in the most transcendent relationship~that~I've ever seen in Germany for all of her remaining~a hundred~years. Anne Marie: Wow. And I got to know and love this woman and the priest. And I thought, this is a very different Holocaust story.~This is not, and I, again,~going back to what you said before about resilience,~about~finding unexpected allies and being able to deal with unwelcome, unexpected events that happen to us, and then figuring out how to deal with it. Anne Marie:~And~she was the gold standard in my book. So I knew I had to write that story. And 85% of what happens in that book actually happened. My next novel is some people would say[very loosely based on my own life, but it's a what if book. What if things about my own life and my own family had turned out very differently? Anne Marie: What would that look like?~And~I. Love hard apple cider and had a dream of actually producing it. So I made my character do that. And so the book, it's called Hard Cider. It's a novel, it's contemporary. It takes place in North Port Michigan, which is where we have a lake home,~and it's kind of my heart center, so~it's not historical, but heavily researched in the apple and hard cider production. Anne Marie:~And it's, it's,~it's a set piece for Northern Michigan Beauty and Lake Country~and so forth. And so~that book had to come out and then I went back to historical fiction with Isabella's Way.~So, you know,~they tell you you're~really~supposed to create a brand and stick to it. Not so much in my writing life. Anne Marie: Yeah.~No, I love that you're taking us on this journey and what an incredible first novel~that is an amazing story.~Like so many things about it are contrary and~you know,~it reminds me of my mother.~So~when she was a child,~what happened is, um. Her family, part of~her family was executed in World War I, as the Germans, moved through Belgium during the rape of Belgium. Anne Marie: I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but~Yes.~Some people said it wasn't. I know it was because of what happened in my family.~Uh,~her family was hiding under a,~um,~aqueduct in Neff Belgium and the Ger Well, one of the things with the Germans is that they were. On~an~amphetamines,~that's what kept that engine going for so long.~ Anne Marie: And the further they moved through Belgium, the more paranoid~they became~and~the more~violent they became.~And so,~there was a crossing~there where.~Right in front of~my grandmother's house,~my great-grandmother's house.~And my mom's great aunt lived on the other side of the road anyway, so they were executed basically.~ Anne Marie: Some of them survived, some~of them~didn't. The mother of,~uh,~the five children was actually at my mother's wedding in France,~but, um. So I'm making this a really long story about myself. I'm sorry, I just, I've gotten away with it, but what you're pointing out is that~these elemental family stories,~you know,~we can talk about generational[trauma, I believe in that. Anne Marie: Yeah. But I also prefer to think of it that these are~marker~ways in which we form our own sense of who we are and where we came from,~and.~What we need to move forward.~And,~and it feeds our sense~of,~of our own identity in ways that I find~very,~very powerful. So I think,~you know,~what you've just described~is,~is a perfect example of that. Anne Marie:~And~knowing those stories and transmitting those stories to me is extremely important.~So yeah, no, I think,~I think,~you know, you are~illustrating~what pro what not~prompted me,~but I is the story of my heart, even in darkness.~Mm-hmm.~Because it informed who I've become as a person. Anne Marie: So this great aunt's brother, my grandfather. Was one of the most important people in my life, and he was so close to her even though they were separated by continents and years~and so forth. And the, and~just observing that connection between the two of them~and, uh,~and his stories[about her trained me to think about people in really important ways. Anne Marie:~Um. Yeah, no, I think what you're saying is really relevant, so~yeah, that's interesting.~And I think that, we both know we're both connected to history in that way. Everything you just said is, something that I've come to believe and think about as well. Anne Marie: I think~that,~you can call it~the~trauma, like you said,~it is trauma.~Mm-hmm. always think about. With genealogy~is~all the near misses that had to happen for us to be here.~Yes. And~I think~that with, experience~that~happened in my mother's family 25 years before World War ii, so then 25 years later we have World War ii. Anne Marie: Where is my mother?~Uh,~gone to live with her great-grandmother right in front of the monument~that is there~to the people that perished in that, execution.~Wow. And so~she's seven years old and she knows the story and oh my God, the Germans are coming again.~And~her grandmother wouldn't leave, therefore her mother wouldn't leave Belgium. Anne Marie: Finally in, the[legend in the family is they got on the last train leaving Belgium, they end up in a place called Laro. France~and~only to be occupied by the German military, shortly thereafter. So she's living in this town at the age of eight,~and there's a story, and I am going back to what we first started talking about Anne Marie:~Kind of the nuance of these situations. But~my mom tells a story. She's eight years old, her brother is five. They don't have money, but they do love pastries.~And~so~they would go and basically their form of entertainment go, was to~go to the patisserie~and~look in the window and dream about eating the pastries~in there.~ Anne Marie:~And so.~This,~uh,~German soldier, and she always said there was a difference between the SS and,~uh, the plain German military, but there was a young German soldier, looked at them, walked into the, pastry shop, and when he came out, he gave~them both. Pastry you had bought~them both a pastry~and it's just~it shoots everything we believe about right and wrong, good and bad. Anne Marie:~Like~that story always sticks with me and I'm always interested in that nuance,~like,~the gray areas of situations like this. And that's why I love that.~Isn't that, go ahead. Sorry. I'm sorry.~It's~to me, I mean, I'm, I'm jumping in because this is~so[00:15:00] important to me. In my great aunt's story in Isabella's Ways. Anne Marie: In that story, I focus on unexpected allies.~Like~we have these narratives that~have developed around, our concept that,~if you're Jewish, all Germans were bad,~mm-hmm.~Because of what happened during the Holocaust, but that's not true. There were countless stories In my own family. Anne Marie:~You're talking about this story in your family.~You never know where you find notion to identify where you can recruit allies when you're in trouble. If you let go of these preconceived notions and consider people for whom they really are and recognize. That, and there are countless stories about that. Anne Marie:~It's just it, to me it's,~it's a really important notion, especially where we are in our culture and~in our~politics today,~is~to~really~resist being in a silo[because nothing's black and white. And~so~that's a really good example of that That's an unexpected ally. Anne Marie: Yeah. That's how this started is you use that term. I like that unexpected ally. Yeah. And I have thought a lot about my,~uh,~family and.~The resistors, the resistance,~the underground resistance. There were several of those in my family during World War ii, and I have been thinking a lot about them since things have changed and the political landscape~and I do, I~draw on their experiences and think about, well, what was that like for them? Anne Marie: And try to think bigger than. The narrow-mindedness that~really~I'm kind of drawn to is,~you know,~black and white.~Exactly. Let me look at my list here.~ Anne Marie:~Okay, here's a good one.~What connections do you see between the stories you tell and the world we live in today? Oh my goodness. Like I said before.[I worked for 15 years on the board of a refugee welcoming, very fraught situation because Jewish Family Services started bringing Russian refugees into the United States. And then when that~sort of~era ended,~and then~they were bringing Afghani and African and. Syrian refugees who were escaping persecution~that they were experiencing~in those countries. And~that, you know,~that was a little bit fraught for a Jewish community agency, but the agency had no problem with it. Some of the other people~did, but they~did it because~it,~it's the right thing to do.~You know,~these people needed help~and.~We don't discriminate.~So~my own parents were both refugees, so I was very involved in that.~And then~I started writing about this[story of Isabella, and I had no idea when I started writing that book, the fraught situation~that~I would. Recognize in our country for immigrants and refugees and the incredible politics around that.~So~the reasons I started writing this story were meaning this girl jumped into my head. I knew that~my own,~my maternal grandmother's family~I knew~in the 17th century. Or actually into the 16th century had left Portugal because of the Inquisition and went to Hamburg, Germany. Anne Marie:~Oh, wow. That's all I knew. Wow. Okay.~I didn't realize that. That is fascinating. So during COVID, I did your basic deep dive into ancestry.com and actually found my ancestor who was born in~a brunch,~Portugal. In 1586 and died in Hamburg, Germany in[1640~something. Wow. And I, had already known my great-grandfather on that side was an armchair genealogist. Anne Marie:~And~I had this beautiful scroll in his~gorgeous~handwriting of~my, of great-grandmother's family,~going way back. And so I knew that this. You know,~there was a~very~famous Portuguese name.~That was my grandmother's name. So I knew I had that background.~But you know, I did this bike ride, I wasn't thinking about that other than loosely~Oh yeah, I was somewhere there.~ Anne Marie: But by the end of that bike ride, I had seen so many places and had learned so much about that. Diaspora~that you know,~of the expulsion from Spain and Portugal over a couple of centuries that I realized,~huh, you know,~this actually applies to me,~you know,~and my family. So isn't that something how we're drawn to that history? Anne Marie:~It is,~it is. And I keep thinking,~you know, is this just sort of, you a selfish kind of. Personal journey~that I'm on.~But then I realize, no,[this is iconic. This is the story of immigrants in so many different versions. It's the story of repression~and~in so many different versions~it,~and~you know,~this is just one of'em. Anne Marie:~Mm-hmm.~So I felt like,~okay,~this story~has. It~has some importance globally.~And so, but~the reason I started writing this story is very different over the five or six years between when I started writing it and when I've published it. The world in the United States of America has changed so much regarding~this particular topic Anne Marie:~Of~refugees and immigrants that the reason I started writing it and the circumstances. In which I'm bringing this book out this year,~this time as~a book about refugees, a book with Jewish content, it's very different than what I thought I was writing about~or~initially.~Mm-hmm. And I,~I'm very[aware of that shift and~it's,~it's been kind of interesting. Anne Marie: Yeah, it is interesting. I'm just relating on so many different levels as you talk.~I, and I'm interested, I, read a book by Felipa Gregory called The Queen's Fool,~and it's about, yes.~Did you read that one? I love Felipe Gregory. Oh, so do I.~But~that book got me really interested in the,~you know,~Spanish Inquisition and,~yes.~ happened to the Jewish people from Spain.~And then~I have a friend~actually~who is,~um,~Mexican.~We did,~she did her DNA.~And so I love digging into that, people's DNA and ancestry and all that. And came out~in her family, she had no idea~that one of her ancestors was Jewish from Spain. Anne Marie: Oh yeah. And so that has always made me curious what was that about?~And it was deep in their past. And so this kind of,~you know,~speaks to that, this history that you're talking about. And then of course we come full circle and the whole,~um,~refugee, immigration, issue in our country really around the world. Anne Marie:~It just, it it can help but~[00:22:00] come full circle. And I think that's what makes the work relevant~is, you know, you,~you talked earlier about the emotional truth, and I always start from that place too. What is,~you know,~the emotional truth as I perceive it. But also that is the thing that~I think makes the story relevant. Anne Marie: Along with if, the reader, the listener.~Whoever it is, if they~can connect the dots back to today. I mean,~that,~that's everything right there.~And~you definitely cover it all with,~the book,~the new book, and~also~everything you've said about it and how you've related it to, today, and I think that's important. Anne Marie: Yeah.~You know,~one of the things I realized is that I'm very interested in strong women characters, so all three of my books have strong women characters.~I'm very interested that,~like I said before, life presents us with unpleasant, unexpected issues, and[I'm very interested in how~do~we deal with that. Anne Marie: And how do we recruit allies? How do we recognize unexpected allies? And then where do we go with that? And so that's kind of a overarching theme in all my books and,~you know,~Isabella's specifically about the~whole~refugee and escape~and that kind of thing. And I just,~I'm always interested, how do we deal with that? Anne Marie: How do we move forward, in a way that is more positive than negative?~You know, like~how do we remain undefeated by those~kinds of, of~situations?~I, yeah. And~as a reflection point,~I think that~we both have family who have persevered through~Yep. Just.~Unconscionable situations.~And~that~in and of itself~tells me I can persevere through this because they did. Anne Marie: And yes, what I'm going through is nothing like they did and I have their DNA in me.~Boy, we've gotten deep on this, haven't we, Barbara? Well, speaking of DNA,~one of the things[that just blew me away. Is,~uh,~some ridiculously high. And~I,~I don't wanna say it out loud because I'm not sure the number is 78%, but please don't hold me to that of Portuguese people have some Jewish DNA~in their,~in their profile. Anne Marie:~And it's because.~In 1492, the expulsion from Spain of Jews and Muslims, many, many, many just crossed the border over into Portugal because they had not imposed~all of~the strictures of the Inquisition~at the the same way that the people in Spain did. and those people were converso, they were people who converted to Catholicism. Anne Marie: Some did it. Truly and became Catholic. Some did it okay, I'm gonna pretend I'm Catholic, but really I'm gonna hold onto my Jewish heritage. But there was a tremendous[assimilation of Jewish people into the Portuguese population,~and~when I heard that statistic, I went, wow.~And then, you were talking about the,~I think it was your~Mexican person,~so~Mary Morris, who's a wonderful author. Anne Marie: Who wrote a wonderful blurb for, Isabella's Way, wrote a book called Gateway to the Moon that talks about that recognition and discovery that so many people in the diaspora from Spain and Portugal came to the New world, Mexico, New Mexico, into the United States, had this. Sephardic Jewish background that no one knew about. Anne Marie: These were all devout Catholics, but they discovered it and their mothers would be lighting candles in the basement on Friday night, and nobody knew why that happened, but they just did it. It was part of their family tradition,~you know?~So there were these[Jewish elements of their lives that they didn't understand were Jewish until we got DNA. Anne Marie:~Fascinating. Fascinating. we did my mom's DNA, she wanted to have it done and~she was,~didn't have long for this world. So we did her DNA and interestingly enough,~there,~there is, some markers for Eskenazi Jew.~Yep. Anyways, but you know, they,~she grew up Catholic and.~You know,~their story isn't the Jewish story, but it is peripherally the Jewish story,~so, well, it's,~it's the persecution story. Anne Marie:~Yeah. Yeah, for sure.~What else do you want us to know about this history that I haven't~asked? You know, it's. W~as I've been on book tour~now,~it's fascinating to me how little most people know about the Inquisition, which started,~I think~in the 12th century and wasn't really put to sleep until 1830 something, I think 36 or 37. Anne Marie: And it was such an[important, issue throughout all of Europe and into the new world.~And~I knew about it, but not as much as I learned about it when I researched Isabella's way.~But~it's so interesting to me that that's an era of history that is less known.~And~that was surprising to me. Anne Marie:~So.~Perhaps it would be surprising to your listeners, how can we find more out about this history? I cover a lot of it in Isabel's Way.~Read the book. Read the book. Read the book. And you know,~I, I, I an author's note that sort of describes it,~but~read Mary Morris's Gateway to the Moon, which you know, follows, over centuries of, you know, family that discovers their heritage. Anne Marie: And there's an amazing book, by Ruth Behar called,~uh~oh, I'm gonna forget the name, across so many Cs. It's about four[12-year-old girls. Over the course of four different centuries, starting in the Iberian Peninsula and ending up in Miami.~And~each of them experiences life as a refugee into the next era. Anne Marie:~You know,~going from the Iberian Peninsula,~I think~into Turkey,~and~then Cuba and then Miami.~And so~there are a lot of stories about it, but I'm sure there are also a lot of histories about it. Anne Marie:~Well, and~I'm curious about the pivot to writing for you. You said that~you, let me see, I have it here somewhere. Yeah. So,~the storytelling began because I had a grandfather who was an attorney in Berlin.~I mean,~he was born in 1892 and he escaped Germany in 1938 and ended up working for a paper box factory in[Detroit, and then he got readmitted to the bar in Germany to do restitution work for people who'd lost. Their businesses, their property, their education, and their health.~And~the German government gave restitution.~So~he got readmitted to the bar and four times a year traveled from Detroit to Germany. He was an orator.~He was~a storyteller.~He was a,~an amazing, model for telling stories~and.~As grandchildren, we got a better dessert if we told him a good story. Anne Marie:~And that was where it began.~As a child, I was also a very avid reader early on. And then I became a English teacher and a speech and language therapist. So I was teaching kids how to read and write. I was working with children who had challenges. Telling their stories, and I had to figure out what do they need in order to be able to communicate more effectively. Anne Marie:~So there's this through line, but~my bucket list[item was to write a novel.~So~I retired and started writing after a 30 year career in education and working in hospitals with kids. I retired in order to start writing books. So that's kind of It. I call it my encore career. And that's what it was. Your encore career. Anne Marie: I loved my career.~Yeah.~I was pretty good at it. I never dreamed~that~I could have another career~that would be~as satisfying and successful as that first one.~So here's my gratitude expression right now.~I'm a very lucky person. So are you traditionally published? I am published by She Writes, press, all three of my books have been published by She Writes Press, which is a hybrid publisher. Anne Marie: Mm-hmm. And that is kind of halfway, it's like a interim between self-publishing and traditional[publishing. So I invest upfront~for,~in my publication process,~it's. S~manuscripts are vetted and not everybody can publish. There's a requirement~to,~to achieve a certain level of, editing before~you know~your manuscript is accepted for publication, I get gorgeous cover design, internal book design. Anne Marie: Most importantly, professional distribution. Like we're distributed right now through Simon and Schuster.~Um, so~we get good book distribution~and we get~a beautiful book, and then we get a much greater percentage of royalties than people who publish traditionally.~Um,~but we do our own publicity and~our own~marketing, or we hire people. Anne Marie:~To help us with that. So it's kind of an interim.~When I first decided~to~that I was gonna do more than print 50 copies of even in darkness and give it to my family and friends~when~I[00:32:00] realized I had something~better and~more globally relevant~than that. found Brooke Warner,~who is~my publisher of She Writes Press, and I said. I wanna work with that person~and, um,~the rest is history.~Interesting. That's interesting. I'm,~I'm really interested in the publishing and~the~writing part because I'm just starting that journey and~I will, check it out or, you know, like~we can talk more about that.~Okay. Yeah, I have an imprint, Belgian Rabbit Publishing and,~you know,~I'm gonna move forward with that. Anne Marie: I do need~an~an editor~though~to do~like~a final run of the book. So that's~so~important.~Yeah.~Finding an editor that you work well with~and~that you feel comfortable with, that gets you and gets the book that's so important. Yeah, where can we find you? I am on Facebook, Barbara Stark, Neiman my author page. Anne Marie: And I have a pretty[elaborate website@barbarastarkneman.com, and the Neiman part is spelled N-E-M-O-N, because. That's a weird spelling of Neiman. And I'm on Instagram, I'm on threads, and~that's pretty much, I am~dipping my toe into TikTok,~but I'm really not there yet. You're brave. will link out to your website and all those places in the show notes. Anne Marie:~Um. Just, you know, one more time,~is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to say? No. You've asked me all the important questions and thank you for doing that. Well, thank you for being here and sharing this important history and your process~and. You know, I can't say it enough.~I connect to pretty much everything you talked about, about your craft and how you link into it through history, through~uh,~this idea of emotional truth. Anne Marie: And you know, I~just~really connect with that and I so appreciate you and what you're doing and how you're doing it.[Thank you so much Anne-Marie. There is one more thing, which is I love doing book clubs. So if any of your listeners have book clubs that they'd be interested in,~um,~having,~you know,~any one of my books. Anne Marie:~But~I do zoom into book clubs and if I'm local, I come to book clubs.~So that, that was the one more thing I know I~just~immediately thought of my, partner's stepmother who I just visited for her 80th birthday and,~um, her, some of~her book club buddies were there~and they were, about books. This would be a good book for them.~I think they'd really appreciate it.~They love to read books about,~uh,~women and strong women in particular.~Yep. So~I'll let her know about it. Great. Thank you Anne Marie:~okay. And~thank you so much, Anne-Marie. This was really delightful.~Okay.~Thank you for being here, Barbara. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you. I appreciate that. And you know, we connected on a Facebook page for authors and I knew right away, like I had two people reach out to me that are historical fiction writers. You were one of'em. And I was like, oh my God, this is a perfect match. I'm really excited to. Go on your journey with you about history the first thing I ask is, what is your favorite history? as I responded to you, my favorite history is whatever I'm working on in my historical fiction journey. I love stories. As a way to learn about particular areas of history. So I have done a deep dive into the experience of Germans in pre-World War I, into World War II and after World War II in Germany. And my latest book takes place in 17th century, Inquisition era, Portugal, Spain, France, and Germany. So I've done deep dives into those periods, but pretty much I can engage with a story in any era and really love and learn more about it through those stories. I have two questions, but I'll start with, what.

Anne Marie: 41:23

Attracted you to the history of the book that you're working on right now, which maybe you could tell us the name of it. Is it out yet? When is it coming out? Tell us a little bit about that history. my current novel is called Isabella's Way, it released on September 16th. I'm, on book tour with it it. Is the story of a 14-year-old embroidery who must find her way out of Inquisition era Portugal through Spain and France into, Germany in order to escape the inquisitors that are chasing her. she does not understand that her. Embroidery is being used by a clandestine network of safe houses, the 17th century version of an underground railroad, to signal safety or danger. She also does not understand that she is not the good Catholic girl, that she was raised to believe that she was, that there's a. Different identity, a Jewish identity, of her family, and that's why she has to make this escape. these things emerge over the course of the novel. Why this history? So why this and why now? Isabella came to me in 2011. I was on a kind of warrior woman bicycle trip from, Lisbon, Portugal to the Alhambra in Granada, Spain. We'd had some serious medical issues in our family. My husband was supposed to be with me. he wasn't because he couldn't travel at that time. My son was in Madrid. I wanted to visit him. we wanted to do this bike trip, so I did the bike trip There's a wonderful story, which I won't go into the whole thing about a Celtic standing stone circle and my writing down from this very challenging climb, and this 14-year-old girl popped into my head. I was in the middle of writing my first historical novel, even in darkness. I knew I had a second novel. So I said, you need to wait because I can't do you now. And she did wait, through the writing and publication of two previous novels. I served on the board of Jewish Family Services in my local community, which is the primary. Agency that welcomes refugees into our county from all over the world, I was very involved in strategic planning and in fundraising and so forth. My own two parents were refugees from Germany to the United States prior to World War II as teenagers. So the whole refugee concept. Is part of my DNA and part of my choices, to use my skills as a volunteer in agencies. and then to round it all off, I'm a fiber artist and so I was connected to all the embroidery that I saw, in that bike trip as we explored different. communities and the cultures surrounding them. So those things all conspired to make me do two more trips to the Iberian Peninsula, France, in Germany to actually trace the root of my characters as they made their way, to, the end of the story. Wow. I love that. That's how I connect to history as well. Travel and, family, you know, there's a family connection to pretty much everything that I do as far as writing and documentary, filmmaking. I know. That's why I was so excited to see and read about all of the things that you're doing. both of your novels weave together the personal and historical trauma with resilience and hope. How do you balance emotional truth with historical accuracy? Oh, I love that question. If I don't. Center myself around the emotional truth. I'm not writing the way I want to, so the emotional truth is at the center of my writing about these things. That said, I'm a bit of a stickler I love the research part of the books that I write, so I do the historical piece. I very dedicated to doing the research and for me, the research, as you suggested, does involve, and I'm fortunate enough to be able to do the kind of traveling I've done. To get the sights and the sounds tastes and colors, of the places I visit. I also do a lot of academic research, a lot of online research. it is a balancing act, but I'm never. Besieged by concerns about which thing has the priority. For me, the emotional truth takes precedence. I've never been in a situation where I felt that there was a conflict between what I want to say and the historical truth, or what I want to say and the emotional truth. somehow I've managed to dodge that. Problem with balance, but I'm aware of it and conscious of it. So is your third novel, the one that just came out? Yes. So what were your other two and what was the history, those the first novel is based on a family story. It's called Even in Darkness. It is based on the life of my great aunt who is the only member of my maternal grandfather's family who did not escape Germany prior to the Holocaust. she wouldn't leave the country because her. Mother wouldn't go, my great-grandmother. And because her husband had been mustard gassed in World War I and was ill, if you were ill, you could not get an affidavit to come to this country. she wouldn't leave, her husband wouldn't leave her mother, so she stayed and she was a massage therapist. She ended up in a unusual relationship with a commandant at the concentration camp. she survived, kept everybody alive, her mother and her husband, and then lost everybody She fought to save, but went on to spend the rest of her life with a Catholic priest half her age in the most transcendent relationship I've ever seen in Germany for all of her remaining years. Wow. And I got to know and love this woman and the priest. And I thought, this is a very different Holocaust story. going back to what you said before about resilience, finding unexpected allies and being able to deal with unwelcome, unexpected events that happen to us, and then figuring out how to deal with it. she was the gold standard in my book. So I knew I had to write that story. And 85% of what happens in that book actually happened. My next novel is some people would say very loosely based on my own life, but it's a what if book. What if things about my own life and my own family had turned out very differently? What would that look like? I. Love hard apple cider and had a dream of actually producing it. So I made my character do that. And so the book, it's called Hard Cider. It's a novel, it's contemporary. It takes place in North Port Michigan, which is where we have a lake home, it's not historical, but heavily researched in the apple and hard cider production. it's a set piece for Northern Michigan Beauty and Lake Country that book had to come out and then I went back to historical fiction with Isabella's Way. they tell you you're supposed to create a brand and stick to it. Not so much in my writing life. Yeah. I love that you're taking us on this journey and what an incredible first novel Like so many things about it are contrary and it reminds me of my mother. when she was a child, her family was executed in World War I, as the Germans, moved through Belgium during the rape of Belgium. I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but Some people said it wasn't. I know it was because of what happened in my family. her family was hiding under a, aqueduct in Neff Belgium and the Germans were. On amphetamines, And the further they moved through Belgium, the more paranoid and violent they became. there was a crossing Right in front of my great-grandmother's house. Some of them survived, some didn't. The mother of, the five children was actually at my mother's wedding in France, these elemental family stories, we can talk about generational trauma, I believe in that. Yeah. But I also prefer to think of it that these are ways in which we form our own sense of who we are and where we came from, and it feeds our sense of our own identity in ways that I find very powerful. So I think, what you've just described is a perfect example of that. knowing those stories and transmitting those stories to me is extremely important. illustrating prompted me, this is the story of my heart, even in darkness. Because it informed who I've become as a person. So this great aunt's brother, my grandfather. Was one of the most important people in my life, and he was so close to her even though they were separated by continents and years just observing that connection between the two of them and his stories about her stories about him trained me to think about people in really important ways. yeah, that's interesting. we both know we're both connected to history in that way. Everything you just said is, something that I've come to believe and think about as well. I think like you said, genealogical trauma. but I always think about. With genealogy all the near misses that had to happen for us to be here. I think that experience happened in my mother's family 25 years before World War ii, so then 25 years later we have World War ii. Where is my mother? gone to live with her great-grandmother right in front of the monument to the people that perished in that, execution. she's seven years old and she knows the story and oh my God, the Germans are coming again. her grandmother wouldn't leave, therefore her mother wouldn't leave Belgium. Finally the legend in the family is they got on the last train leaving Belgium, they end up in a place called Laro. France only to be occupied by the German military, shortly thereafter. So she's living in this town at the age of eight, my mom tells a story. She's eight years old, her brother is five. They don't have money, but they do love pastries. so go to the patisserie look in the window and dream about eating the pastries This, German soldier, and she always said there was a difference between the SS and, the plain German military, but there was a young German soldier, looked at them, walked into the, pastry shop, and when he came out, he gave pastry it shoots everything we believe about right and wrong, good and bad. that story always sticks with me and I'm always interested in that nuance, the gray areas of situations like this. And that's why I love that. to me. In my great aunt's story in Isabella's Ways. In that story, I focus on unexpected allies. we have these narratives that if you're Jewish, all Germans were bad, Because of what happened during the Holocaust, but that's not true. You never know where you find and the notion to identify where you can recruit allies when you're in trouble. If you let go of these preconceived notions and consider people for they really are and recognize. That, there are countless stories about that. a really important notion, especially where we are in our culture and politics today, to resist being in a silo of black and white, because nothing's black and white. And that's a really good example of that pastry. That's an unexpected ally. Yeah. That's how this started is you use that term. I like that unexpected ally. And I have thought a lot about my, family and. the underground resistance. There were several of those in my family during World War ii, and I have been thinking a lot about them since things have changed and the political landscape draw on their experiences and think about, well, what was that like for them? And I try to think bigger than. The narrow-mindedness that I'm kind of drawn to black and white. What connections do you see between the stories you tell and the world we live in today? Oh my goodness. Like I said before. I worked for 15 years on the board of a refugee welcoming, very fraught situation because Jewish Family Services started bringing Russian Jewish, Russian refugees into the United States. And then when that era ended, they were bringing Afghani and African and. Syrian refugees who were escaping persecution in those countries. And that was a little bit fraught for a Jewish community agency, but the agency had no problem with it. Some of the other people did it because it's the right thing to do. these people needed help We don't discriminate. my own parents were both refugees, so I was very involved in that. I started writing about this story of Isabella, and I had no idea when I started writing that book, the fraught situation I would. Recognize in our country for immigrants and refugees and the incredible politics around that. the reasons I started writing this story were meaning this girl jumped into my head. I knew that my maternal grandmother's family in the 17th century. Or actually into the 16th century had left Portugal because of the Inquisition and went to Hamburg, Germany. I didn't realize that. That is fascinating. So during COVID, I did your basic deep dive into ancestry.com and actually found my ancestor who was born in Portugal. In 1586 and died in Hamburg, Germany in 1640 I had already known my great-grandfather on that side was an armchair genealogist. I had this beautiful scroll in his handwriting my great-grandmother's family, there was a famous Portuguese name. was my grandmother's name. So I knew I had that background. when I did this bike ride, I wasn't thinking about that other than loosely But by the end of that bike ride, I had seen so many places and had learned so much about the expulsion from Spain and Portugal over a couple of centuries that I realized, this actually applies to me, and my family. So isn't that something how we're drawn to that history? it is. And I keep thinking, a selfish kind of. Personal journey But then I realize, no, this is iconic. This is the story of immigrants in so many different versions. It's the story of repression in so many different versions and this is just one of'em. So I felt like, this story has some importance globally. the reason I started writing this story is very different over the five or six years between when I started writing it and when I've published it. The world in the United States of America has changed so much regarding refugees and immigrants that the reason I started writing it and the circumstances. In which I'm bringing this book out this year, a book about refugees, a book with Jewish content, very different than what I thought I was writing about initially. I'm very aware of that shift and it's been kind of interesting. Yeah, it is interesting. I'm just relating on so many different levels as you talk. I read a book by Felipa Gregory called The Queen's Fool, Did you read that one? I love Felipe Gregory. Oh, so do I. that book got me really interested in the, Spanish Inquisition what happened to the Jewish people from Spain. I have a friend who is, Mexican. she did her DNA. it came out that one of her ancestors was Jewish from Spain. Oh yeah. And so I've been like, that has always made me curious that story, And it was deep in their past. And so this kind of, speaks to that, this history that you're talking about. And then of course we come full circle the whole, refugee, immigration, issue in our country around the world. come full circle. I think that's what makes the work relevant you talked earlier about the emotional truth, and I always start from that place too. What is, the emotional truth as I perceive it. But also that is the thing that makes the story relevant. the reader, the listener. can connect the dots back to today. I mean, that's everything right there. you definitely cover it all with, the new book, and everything you've said about it and how you've related it to, today, and I think that's important. Yeah. one of the things I realized is that I'm very interested in strong women characters, so all three of my books have strong women characters. life presents us with unpleasant, unexpected issues, and I'm very interested in how we deal with that. And how do we recruit allies? How do we recognize unexpected allies? And then where do we go with that? And so that's kind of a overarching theme in all my books and, Isabella's ways specifically about the refugee and escape I'm always interested, how do we deal with that? How do we move forward, in a way that is more positive than negative? how do we remain undefeated by those situations? as a reflection point, we both have family who have persevered through Unconscionable situations. that tells me I can persevere through this because they did. And yes, what I'm going through is nothing like they did and I have their DNA in me. one of the things that just blew me away. Is, some ridiculously high. And I don't wanna say it out loud because I'm not sure the number is 78%, but I'm not gonna, please don't hold me to that of Portuguese people have some Jewish DNA in their profile. In 1492, the expulsion from Spain of Jews and Muslims, many just crossed the border over into Portugal because they had not imposed the strictures of the Inquisition in the same way that the people in Spain did. and those people were converso, they were people who converted to Catholicism. Some did it. Truly and became Catholic. Some did it okay, I'm gonna pretend I'm Catholic, but really I'm gonna hold onto my Jewish heritage. But there was a tremendous assimilation of Jewish people into the Portuguese population, when I heard that statistic, I went, wow. you were talking about Mary Morris, who's a wonderful author. Who wrote a wonderful blurb for, Isabella's Way, wrote a book called Gateway to the Moon that talks about that recognition and discovery that so many people in the diaspora from Spain and Portugal came to the New world, Mexico, New Mexico, into the United States, had this. Sephardic Jewish background that no one knew about. These were all devout Catholics, but they discovered it and their mothers would be lighting candles in the basement on Friday night, and nobody knew why that happened, but they just did it. It was part of their family tradition, So there were these Jewish elements of their lives that they didn't understand were Jewish until we got DNA. when we did my mom's DNA, she wanted to have it done and didn't have long for this world. So we did her DNA and interestingly enough, some markers for Eskenazi Jew. she grew up Catholic and. their story isn't the Jewish story, but it is peripherally the Jewish story, it's the persecution story. What else do you want us to know about this history that I haven't as I've been on book tour it's fascinating to me how little most people know about the Inquisition, which started, in the 12th century and wasn't really put to sleep until 1830 something, I think 36 or 37. And it was such an important, issue throughout all of Europe and into the new world. I knew about it, but not as much as I learned about it when I researched Isabella's way. it's so interesting to me that that's an era of history that is less known. that was surprising to me. Perhaps it would be surprising to your listeners, how can we find more out about this history? I cover a lot of it in Isabel's Way. Read the book. And you know, have an author's note that sort of describes it, read Mary Morris's Gateway to the Moon, which follows, over centuries family that discovers their heritage. And there's an amazing book, by Ruth Behar called, across so many It's about four 12-year-old girls. Over the course of four different centuries, starting in the Iberian Peninsula and ending up in Miami. each of them experiences life as a refugee into the next era. going from the Iberian Peninsula, into Turkey, then Cuba and then Miami. there are a lot of stories about it, but I'm sure there are also a lot of histories about it. I'm curious about the pivot to writing for you. You said that the storytelling began because I had a grandfather who was an attorney in Berlin. he was born in 1892 and he escaped Germany in 1938 and ended up working for a paper box factory in Detroit, and then he got readmitted to the bar in Germany to do restitution work for people who'd lost. Their businesses, their property, their education, and their health. the German government gave restitution. he got readmitted to the bar and four times a year traveled from Detroit to Germany. He was an orator. a storyteller. an amazing, model for telling stories As grandchildren, we got a better dessert if we told him a good story. As a child, I was a very avid reader early on. I became a English teacher and a speech and language therapist. So I was teaching kids how to read and write. I was working with children who had challenges. Telling their stories, and I had to figure out what they need in order to communicate more effectively. my bucket list item was to write a novel. I retired and started writing after a 30 year career in education and working in hospitals with kids. I call it my encore career. And that's what it was. I loved my career. I was pretty good at it. I never dreamed I could have another career as satisfying and successful as that first one. I'm a very lucky person. So are you traditionally published? I am published by She Writes, press, all three of my books have been published by She Writes Press, which is a hybrid publisher. And that is kind of halfway, it's like a interim between self-publishing and traditional publishing. I invest upfront in my publication process, manuscripts are vetted and not everybody can publish. There's a requirement to achieve a certain level of, editing before your manuscript is accepted for publication, I get gorgeous cover design, internal book design. Most importantly, professional distribution. Like we're distributed right now through Simon and Schuster. we get good book distribution a beautiful book, and then we get a much greater percentage of royalties than people who publish traditionally. but we do our own publicity and marketing, or we hire people. When I first decided that I was gonna do more than print 50 copies of even in darkness and give it to my family and friends I realized I had something more globally relevant I found Brooke Warner, my publisher of She Writes Press, and I said. I wanna work with that person the rest is history. I'm really interested in the publishing and writing part because I'm just starting that journey and we can talk more about that. I have an imprint, Belgian Rabbit Publishing and, I'm gonna move forward with that. I do need an editor to do a final run of the book. So that's important. Finding an editor that you work well with that you feel comfortable with, that gets you and gets the book that's so important. where can we find you? I am on Facebook, Barbara Stark, Neiman my author page. And I have a pretty elaborate website@barbarastarkneman.com, the Neiman part is spelled N-E-M-O-N, That's a weird spelling of Neiman. And I'm on Instagram, I'm on threads, and dipping my toe into TikTok, I will link out to your website and all those places in the show notes. is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to say? No. You've asked me all the important questions and thank you for doing that. Well, thank you for being here and sharing this important history and your process I connect to pretty much everything you talked about, about your craft and how you link into it through history, through this idea of emotional truth. And you know, I really connect with that and I so appreciate you and what you're doing and how you're doing it. Thank you so much Anne-Marie. There is one more thing, which is I love doing book clubs. So if any of your listeners have book clubs that they'd be interested in, having, any one of my books. I do zoom into book clubs and if I'm local, I come to book clubs. I know I immediately thought of my, partner's stepmother who I just visited for her 80th birthday and, her book club buddies were there talking about books. This would be a good book for them. They love to read books about, women and strong women in particular. I'll let her know about it. Great. Thank you thank you so much, Anne-Marie. This was really delightful. Thank you for being here, Barbara. I really enjoyed our conversation.

1:13:11

That was my conversation with Barbara Stark, Neiman author of Isabella's Way, even in darkness and hard cider. What stayed with me after this interview is how deeply personal history really is. How stories of migration, persecution, survival, and unexpected kindness don't stay neatly in the past. They live in families, they live in memory, and sometimes they surface years later as stories. We feel. Compelled to tell Barbara's work reminds us that history isn't just dates and events, it's emotional truth. It's the choices people make under impossible circumstances, and it's the quiet ways resilience gets passed down, whether we're aware of it or not. You'll find links to Barbara's books, her website, and her availability for book clubs in the show notes. Thanks for spending time with me on Armchair Historians. If you enjoyed this episode, the easiest way to support the show is to follow or subscribe, so you never miss an episode. And if you can leave a rating or review or share the episode with a friend who loves history, you'll find my website and links to everything we discussed in the show notes, along with ways to support the show more directly, whether that's joining the community, supporting financially, or simply helping more listeners to discover the podcast. And don't forget. The show notes also include a free short story download that introduces readers to bedlam from my soon to be released historical fiction series. Until next time, keep asking questions because history is anything but finished.